Low jumpers and Stiletos

[Kadde 0]

JBR

I wrote that last comment knowing that whatever I wrote would get me a good tip. I still love this place.

Fixed it for you.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

skow

maybe a bit off topic, but why make a 190 stiletto anyway? 190 sqft is pretty much a student/early jumper's size (talking about 99% of cases), so what's the point of making an elliptical this size?

The Stiletto was introduced with a 1.3 pounds/square foot placarded maximum, lthe Sabre 1.0, and non-students were still adapting from the pound per square foot limit which was prudent on aging F111 canopies. People were evenly split on whether I should jump a 190 or 210 for my first canopy although I only weighed 150 pounds, with the F111 9-cell PD190 the preferred canopy choice.

A 190 allows a slightly large 220 pound guy to stay within the upper limit, or a 165 pound jumper the 1.0 lower recommendation.

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And can you really benefit / feel the real effect of elliptical canopy in that size?

Yes. They're more responsive to toggle input than rectangular canopies which can be enjoyable. Approaching the original wing loading limit the reduced stall speed is nicer at high elevations on hot summer days. Those are reasons every modern skydiving canopy has a tapered or elliptical shape, called "semi-elliptical" for marketing purposes to indicate less aggressive performance.

.

[MikeJD 0]

I may be misremembering, but didn't PD advise/ mandate a minimum of several hundred prior jumps for Stiletto purchasers when it was first made available? If so, I'd suggest that advice should still stand.

People will argue that more radical canopies have been produced since, but it's not as if that makes the Stiletto itself easier to fly. Nor does the benefit of another couple of decades of canopy design and piloting magically filter down to new skydivers - an inexperienced, untutored jumper flying a Stiletto in 2014 is at just as much risk as someone of equivalent experience flying one 20-odd years ago.

Young/ low-time jumpers have far, far better freefall skills than they did when I started in the early nineties, thanks to the proliferation of wind tunnels. I think that fosters a general misconception that people are ready to move on sooner across all aspects of the skydive. Unfortunately canopy skills can't be 'fast tracked' in the same way - there's no substitute for experience in the air, and to achieve that safely you can't afford to get ahead of yourself.

[verticalflyer 11]

JBR

From my profile:

Main: Pulse 210 ft² (1.24 lbs/ft²)
Reserve: PD Reserve 176 ft² (1.48 lbs/ft²)

I've been jumping at the above wingloadings since jump 30.

And can tick the box for all the suggested things you need to be confident in doing before considering downsizing.
I have Jumped a sabre 2 190 a few times already and felt comfortable under it.

Edited to add;

I thought I had a problem with no wind landings when I was jumping club kit (huge 290 student canopy) and it actually turned out that it was due to the lack of response a de-powered student canopy has rather than my technique, as soon as I got my own rig (as listed above) I had the no wind landing sorted, I love a no wind landing these days!

I've also done canopy courses and conversed with instructors etc.
I don't have mad skills though!

I am assuming and I may well be wrong since your profile indicates southampton you jump at Nethers and your reference to Caravans, so am sure Nethers instructors will happily go through options with you. Am surprised they would endorse 1.48lb/sqft from jump 30 though on a reserve.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

Dont just talk about it, Do it!

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

I wrote that last comment knowing that whatever I wrote would get me a flaming. I still love this place.

So you're writing your post(s) purposefully asking for/"baiting" a "flaming"... then chortling over it when you actually think you get one?

I am actually amazed that you haven't (in reality - if you consider Krisanne's THOUGHTFUL response to you "flaming"... OMG) gotten one (or more)!! -

Where's my bounce-bingo card, when I need it?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

Young/ low-time jumpers have far, far better freefall skills than they did when I started in the early nineties, thanks to the proliferation of wind tunnels. I think that fosters a general misconception that people are ready to move on sooner across all aspects of the skydive. Unfortunately canopy skills can't be 'fast tracked' in the same way - there's no substitute for experience in the air, and to achieve that safely you can't afford to get ahead of yourself.

Please stop "flaming" the OP here, Mike!! 1st Krisanne, now you? What is this here all of a sudden - a flame the OP pile-on?? -

I still love this place.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[ufk22 33]

To the OP....
Stay far away from anyone with that level of experience/currency under a Stiletto, no matter the wingload. This canopy responds faster to minor toggle input than any other canopy made (even the Velo or Katana).
Don't let them take you out. I believe PD still recommends 500 jump minimum. Just coming out of a flat turn too quickly or with one hand a couple of inched higher than the other can spin this up big time.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[ufk22 33]

JBR

From my profile:

Main: Pulse 210 ft² (1.24 lbs/ft²)
Reserve: PD Reserve 176 ft² (1.48 lbs/ft²)

I've been jumping at the above wingloadings since jump 30.

And can tick the box for all the suggested things you need to be confident in doing before considering downsizing.
I have Jumped a sabre 2 190 a few times already and felt comfortable under it.

Edited to add;

I thought I had a problem with no wind landings when I was jumping club kit (huge 290 student canopy) and it actually turned out that it was due to the lack of response a de-powered student canopy has rather than my technique, as soon as I got my own rig (as listed above) I had the no wind landing sorted, I love a no wind landing these days!

I've also done canopy courses and conversed with instructors etc.
I don't have mad skills though!

If you couldn't land an old 290 in no wind, what do you think landing a seven cell f-111 reserve loaded that high is going to be like?

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[JBR 0]

You guys can find someone else to back in to a corner and jump on anything they say in response. fyi, I got on the scales in full kit and come in just under the 1.4, I may have rounded up a little when filling in my profile as I wasn't anticipating this sort of thing.

Maybe love was a strong word.

[skez 0]

Unrelated but stilletos are awesome ground launching canopies plus u can always get them cheap

FTMC

[Quagmirian 40]

JBR

You guys can find someone else to back in to a corner and jump on anything they say in response. fyi, I got on the scales in full kit and come in just under the 1.4, I may have rounded up a little when filling in my profile as I wasn't anticipating this sort of thing.

Maybe love was a strong word.

Sorry if it appears that way. None of us is out to shit in your sleeping bag here, honestly. We're simply pointing out possible problems with your setup. As long as you're aware of them, then that's alright.

[ufk22 33]

JBR

You guys can find someone else to back in to a corner and jump on anything they say in response. fyi, I got on the scales in full kit and come in just under the 1.4, I may have rounded up a little when filling in my profile as I wasn't anticipating this sort of thing.

Maybe love was a strong word.

OK....
If this is what you're really looking for.....
You are obviously too f#%$^&^$$%g stupid to know what you don't know. Is that the sort of response you're hoping for?
Chances are, you have absolutely NO jumps under an F-111 seven cell canopy.

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I thought I had a problem with no wind landings when I was jumping club kit (huge 290 student canopy) and it actually turned out that it was due to the lack of response a de-powered student canopy has rather than my technique

Again, if you couldn't land a 9-cell F-111 (?) canopy????
Timing flare on F-111 for a good landing is a much narrower window than any ZP canopy. No F-111 canopy has the flare power of ZP. A student canopy loaded at .85 (that's you under a 290) is a lot more forgiving that a 7-cell loaded at 1.4.
I've got about 500 jumps under 7-cell F-111. The flair has to be full and quick, a little too soon and you stall, a little too late and you crash.
Hope you can look back in a few years, read what you've written here, and realize.....

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[craddock 0]

Fun Canopy especially for the TWY. I remember how shocked I was when I got one for my second canopy as to how responsive it was in toggles. And how flat I could fly it from a long spot. Took my 107 17 miles from 8.5 in very questionable conditions after a cowboy pilot took us up. Safe that your asking is a relative term. Low jump numbers is a relative term. I learned on a Manta 288. Got a used PD 190 a month later for my first gear. Then went to a Stiletto 107 for my next canopy with the money I saved when I couldn't jump for two months over that cold winter recovering from a tib/fib surgery. Good timing on that injury! But I was very current during that first learning year despite the two month layoff and jumped everything I could get my hands on from Jedies, Tomcats, Jonathons, Sabres during the six month transition period

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[primetime 18]

Roger Nelson used to put out first-jump students on Stiletto 190's at SDC. I don't know the outcome of this experiment, but at the time (mid-1990's), I thought it sounded pretty sketchy.

For those who don't know, TWY = Toggle Whipping Yahoo. The origin of this term is the Jedei owner's manual, written by Brian Germain, which also gave us the phrase: "Don't eat no high-speed dirt!"

[ufk22 33]

Popular myth
Roger used sabres, not stilettos

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[craddock 0]

And here I thought my great instructer PrimeTime coined that phrase!

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[PixieUK 0]

mrkeske

Since the Stileto is an eliptical canopy, I got a little worried. Should I be that worried? Is it OK for people with low jump numbers jump one, even if they fly it and land it safely?

Since the general consensus seems to be that many elliptical canopies (Stiletto & Katana have been mentioned among others) are a bad idea for new jumpers, does that apply to all ellipticals or are some more forgiving than others?

My friend has a Safire 2 170 that she offered to lend me to jump when I'm ready to downsize (I'm in no hurry, only just started on my Silhouette 190 so this genuinely isn't about me, lol). What surprised me is that she has fewer jumps than me and had way fewer than me when she bought it (probably around the 35 jump mark). I had no idea it was fully elliptical until I looked it up and I know she had a lot of issues landing it at first (lots of crashes and tumbles). She's loading it at less than 1:1 (as would I, if I were to jump it). I suspect she bought it thinking - small container that actually fits, 170 canopy, has RSL etc - rather than actually researching the type of canopy.

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

[danielcroft 2]

There's a difference between semi-elliptical and fully elliptical. Your last paragraph doesn't specifically mention any canopy other than the Safire 2 which is a semi-elliptical wing in the same range as a Sabre 2 or Pilot. Did you leave out a canopy model or did you find somewhere that says a Safire 2 is fully elliptical?

[PixieUK 0]

danielcroft

There's a difference between semi-elliptical and fully elliptical. Your last paragraph doesn't specifically mention any canopy other than the Safire 2 which is a semi-elliptical wing in the same range as a Sabre 2 or Pilot. Did you leave out a canopy model or did you find somewhere that says a Safire 2 is fully elliptical?

Ah, I stand corrected. When I looked it up, the first place I found was on here that said it was "a truly elliptical canopy" and I queried that with her. She said she didn't actually know (!) so I didn't pursue it further. I assumed that "truly elliptical" was the same as fully elliptical.
http://www.dropzone.com/gear/Detailed/301.html

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

[pchapman 279]

@pixieUK

Yeah there's no definition of different levels of ellipticity. Aerodyne tried providing a mathematical definition but it never caught on.

So in an era when almost every 'regular' canopy is non-rectangular, whether something is lightly- or semi- or fully- or highly-elliptical is just a judgement call among skydivers, more about canopy behaviour and overall flying qualities, than anything relating directly to the amount of taper of the cells.

[skez 0]

Its prob more about marketing lol semi or slightly elliptical as lame as it is still sounds cooler then non elliptical square hahah

FTMC

[megamalfunction 1]

Elliptical parachutes are sort of a dumb idea regardless of how many jumps you have. They're like those drag racing boats you're always seeing crash on "World's Wildest Fuck ups!" Why the hell would anyone ever want one of those?

[craddock 0]

megamalfunction

Elliptical parachutes are sort of a dumb idea regardless of how many jumps you have. They're like those drag racing boats you're always seeing crash on "World's Wildest Fuck ups!" Why the hell would anyone ever want one of those?

Obviously trolling but I will bite. I would love to run a turbine hydroplane and have ran drag boats. 400ish lb allison with a merc 2.5 at well over 100 mph. Owner had it on GPS at 123. I tried to upload a pic that was to big on a 24ft Cat that will run 100+ in heavy chop. Some of those Drag boats are silly though. I only dealt with the outboard types not the blown v8 stuff you are talking about. They are a bit nutty.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[tigra 0]

Sorry Primetime- you are incorrect. But I love how the Roger myth lives on.......

I started at SDC in '96. The student canopy for AFP was a Sabre at the time- which was pretty much unheard of anywhere else. He loved the Stiletto back in the day though, and had a few for his own personal use.

I'll just add that IMO, the whole AFP "experiment" has worked out pretty well for SDC so far. They've turned out some pretty good skydivers and although I don't have any hard data, the number of knuckleheads and dirt eaters doesn't seem to be any higher there than at any other DZ.

[D22369 0]

not sure if he is trolling or not.

he kind of sounds like me back in the day.

moving sucks, always lose something, but one of three missing log books has been found - my first one
what I wrote at #277 on a stiletto 135 coming from an arial 170

really nice soft opening
canopy dove to the right like crazy - whaoaa
very fast turns, really ground hungry when turning.
don't need a canopy quite so fast and twitchy.

in spite of my first impression I ended up on a stiletto that same summer and from there eventually to xbrace and never regretted the decision - but once upon a time in my progression they were scary monsters to avoid.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.