Yoshi 0 #51 February 3, 2003 crossfire 2 111 sq/ft havent jumped it yet... cant wait... still waiting on my oddyssey to get in.... its supposed to be here by the 13th!!!!! I guess Ill jsut wait and see.. laters btw anyone going to be in z-hills from feb 20th to 23rd??? would love to do some free fly jumps with some people I havent jumped with before:) -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #52 February 4, 2003 QuoteDo you recommend putting students under Cobalts at a 1.2 wing loading? yes, anyone you would consider safe under a sabre, safire or hornet is equally safe on a cobalt. Has this been done? yes what size students? As someone who started at a 1.23 winloading(sabre) i can say that with proper training and proper canopy settings this CAN be ok at times. However, should there not be a lower limit? Would you feel comfortable putting a 110lb student on a 113 (exit wt ~135). As an engineer you know quite well that wingloading and performance don't scale equally, especially at the lower end of the spectrum. 1.2 CAN be safe above a certain size, and unless you desagree you may want to qualify that. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #53 February 4, 2003 QuoteYour student canopy, do you mean the Cobalt? yes i mean the cobalt and previously the space/alpha. we are also offering our 'indigo' canopy for this season in sizes 170, 190 & 210. it is slightly less tapered than a cobalt, and the openings are tuned for lighter wingloadings. As an Instructor, I would not put a student on an elliptical canopy. I think it is irresponsible for Atair to recommend putting students under a "high performance" elliptical canopy. QuoteDo you recommend putting students under Cobalts at a 1.2 wing loading? yes, anyone you would consider safe under a sabre, safire or hornet is equally safe on a cobalt. Has this been done? yes Where? What DZ? I would like to contact the DZ and find the results of using fully elliptical canopies as student canopies. I am surprised that I haven't already heard about elliptical canopies being used for students. People freak out every time the rumor mill goes around that SDC is using Stilettos for students. QuoteAt what wing loading is a Cobalt "ideal" for beginners, and how many skydives (range) do you define "beginner" as? around 1.2 off student status. again anyone you would consider safe on a sabre, safire or hornet. What wing loading is used for students? QuoteDoes Atair have a chart showing performance vs. wing loading for the Cobalt?, not a recommended wing loading chart, most manufactures have those, PD has it right on the label. check out our web site faq page. I did, you have a "recommended wing loading" chart, same as every other manufacturer. I asked if you have Quote a chart showing performance vs. wing loading for the Cobalt. Does Atair have one? You said it is better to view "a chart of a canopy's perfromance vs wing loading". But Atair doesn't have one on the web page. Why? If it the best way to go? QuoteHow do you define performance? Max speed? Max turn rate? Glide ratio? Altitude lost in a 360-degree turn? all of the above, depends on context. So will Atair be offering charts using data from "our new inertial nav. unit. data is recorded to flash cards 360' yaw, pitch, roll, acceleration and velocity in all axis, angular rates up to 1200' / sec, plus 3dimensional gps accurate to 2m, barometric altitude, 4 riser links, + desired aditional sensors. " for Colbalts? QuoteWhy do you say a square canopy (Sabre) will have more forward speed at the same wing loading as the Cobalt, but the Cobalt has less drag and is more efficient? Isn't this contradictory? no it isn't. That doesn't make sense to me. Please explain. QuoteWould you agree that a common characteristic of elliptical canopies is a higher max turn rate and faster turn response than an equally sized, material, and wing-loaded square canopy? reducing drag from the ends of a canopy will translate to a faster turning speed all things being equal. Great, we finally agree. Quotebut they are not, there are more variables to consider. a designer can make an elliptical canopy that does not turn as fast as a less elliptical canopy. And we were so close. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #54 February 4, 2003 QuoteWhere? What DZ? I would like to contact the DZ and find the results of using fully elliptical canopies as student canopies. i can think of 1 dz that use fully elliptical canopies. the safire is considered "fully elliptical" it may not be by much, but it is. or the omega. the sabre 2 *i think* is "fully elliptical". and skydive chicago used safires, and now have sabre 2's. i can't think right now, but i know other dz's use safires, and omega's. hell, skydive america has a diblo (spelling??) for a student canopy in one rig. now, i'm not saying that i totally agree, but i also don't totally disagree. like maybe after they have like 15 jumps or so, put them on a lightly loaded safire or something. and about the cobalt for a student canopy, um, i wouldn't put one of my students under one, at least until i could jump one at a wing loading a stundent would, or see how they perform out in the field. just my opinion though. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #55 February 4, 2003 Quote i can think of 1 dz that use fully elliptical canopies. the safire is considered "fully elliptical" it may not be by much, but it is. or the omega. the sabre 2 *i think* is "fully elliptical". and skydive chicago used safires, and now have sabre 2's. i can't think right now, but i know other dz's use safires, and omega's. hell, skydive america has a diblo (spelling??) for a student canopy in one rig. now, i'm not saying that i totally agree, but i also don't totally disagree. like maybe after they have like 15 jumps or so, put them on a lightly loaded safire or something. and about the cobalt for a student canopy, um, i wouldn't put one of my students under one, at least until i could jump one at a wing loading a stundent would, or see how they perform out in the field. I've always considered the Safire to be semi-elliptical. I don't think the leading edge is tapered. Also, SDC use working tandems first and larger Safires (now Sabre2's, I think). The largest Cobalt I've heard of is a 170. Picture a class of AFF level 1's on Cobalt 170's. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alain 0 #56 February 4, 2003 reading the icarus website, I understand that the Safire and xfire are elliptical, but the xfire is more than the safire. for what it's worth... extract from http://www.icaruscanopies.com/main.htm "Safire is a truly elliptical canopy with a light shaping incorporating a constant cell aspect ratio " "The Crossfire 2 is a highly elliptical, constant cell aspect ratio" Alain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #57 February 4, 2003 QuoteI've always considered the Safire to be semi-elliptical. I don't think the leading edge is tapered. well the bastards don't have the old safire thing up, it's only the safire 2, but the safire was "fully ellitical" not much, but it was. QuoteThe largest Cobalt I've heard of is a 170. Picture a class of AFF level 1's on Cobalt 170's. quite scary, you wouldn't see a student of mine under one, not now at least, like i said, if i saw it out in the field, and saw that it works, maybe, and that's a BIG maybe. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ouroboros 0 #58 February 4, 2003 SDC (that is, Skydive Chicago) uses Sabre 2 mains for AFP students. imo, the course is designed to teach skills not available in the AFF course, or in any other student course. part of that is learning to pilot a Sabre 2. wing loadings are conservative 1:1 with canopy skills and landings reviewed for each of the 18 stages of the program. ouroboros Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #59 February 5, 2003 Quotewell the bastards don't have the old safire thing up, it's only the safire 2, but the safire was "fully ellitical" not much, but it was. OK, I thought it was only semi. Good to know, thanks. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #60 February 5, 2003 QuoteSDC (that is, Skydive Chicago) uses Sabre 2 mains for AFP students. imo, the course is designed to teach skills not available in the AFF course, or in any other student course. part of that is learning to pilot a Sabre 2. wing loadings are conservative 1:1 with canopy skills and landings reviewed for each of the 18 stages of the program. And I have taught using Sabre main as student canopies. 3 learning/working tandems first, then lightly loaded Sabres. I agree w/ the AFP program and using Z-P mains after tandems. I don't agree with using Stilettos/Cobalts/Crossfires, etc as student canopies. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #61 February 5, 2003 QuoteAnd I have taught using Sabre main as student canopies. 3 learning/working tandems first, then lightly loaded Sabres. I agree w/ the AFP program and using Z-P mains after tandems. I don't agree with using Stilettos/Cobalts/Crossfires, etc as student canopies. More importantly, Safires and Sabre 2's come in sizes larger then 170... _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #62 February 5, 2003 I think that in the past the Impulse was the canopy used in Europe for students. Same shape as a Cobalt, but earlier design.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
