turning the wrong way?

[ridebmxbikes 0]

So I was trying to learn 450's today and accidentally turned right instead of left and had to turn it into a 630. Anyone ever have this issue?

[mathrick 2]

I don't swoop, but... wouldn't this kind of thing be asking for trouble and a reason to abort the approach? My understanding is that swooping is all about repeatability and making sure you can execute exactly the thing you intended, at an altitude you intended. Adding 120° to your turn would seem to throw the whole thing off and risk a vigorous contact with the ground.

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[Rylan 0]

Maybe if you are trying to learn how to swoop, you find a competent mentor to teach you?

Blue skies

[Pobrause 6]

ridebmxbikes

So I was trying to learn 450's today and accidentally turned right instead of left and had to turn it into a 630. abort !!

Problem solved

Plan the jump and jump the plan!

-------------------------------------------------------

To absent friends

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Well I didn't realize till I had almost already done a 270 so at that point I was just kicking a 360 instead of a 180. A really really fast 360.

Just didn't know if anyone else was as dyslexic as me.

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Ok, forget about the word swooping. Think landing pattern. You try to be as consistent as possible and fly your exact plan ideally. Realistically you are constantly evaluating and adjusting to land exactly where you want. Conditions are always changing.

Yes it greatly increased the risk and I did what I had to do to walk away. I'm not one to ever hesitate when it comes to aborting a swoop. Learned that a while back. I'm not learning how to swoop I'm practicing a different turn. A canopy coach would've have had much help in this situation. Maybe a math tutor?

[mathrick 2]

Back when I was learning about landing approaches, "canopy over your head" took absolute priority over "exactly where you want to land". I don't believe HP approaches change that.

Hooking an extra 180° you didn't plan seriously sounds like a great way to make it into the incidents section. It was only 3 months ago that Dubai had a fatal incident where the competitor apparently set up his approach wrong and ended up too high and too far, and rather than land straight in, he did a low altitude 360° and went in. We will never know why, but developing reflexes that tell you it's OK to improvise when you fuck up would be the first step.

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Technically, relative to my body position, the canopy was over my head the entire time...

I wasn't asking swooping advice from 100 jump wonders or even swooping advice at all. I was more asking the canopy pilots here or at the very least people that do turns if they have had the same experiences.

[Deimian 43]

Nobody gave you swooping advice. They gave you surviving advice. 100-jumps wonder or not, he is right, and despising his advice just because he has a handful jumps is the second mistake you've made with regards this particular landing.

"Canopy over your head" refers to the shortest line made between the ground and your head, not relative to your feet. That should be obvious.

You were asking for similar experiences. For everyone's sake I hope you won't find them. I certainly haven't seen anybody accidentally cranking an extra 180°. But maybe my 400-jumps wonder experience can be also despised.

[DvK 2]

ridebmxbikes

Technically, relative to my body position, the canopy was over my head the entire time...

I wasn't asking swooping advice from 100 jump wonders or even swooping advice at all. I was more asking the canopy pilots here or at the very least people that do turns if they have had the same experiences.

Sounds a lot more as if you're the 100 jump wonder here, instead of the people that try to give you some advice

I've had similar experiences... Brainfart, flew the wrong pattern, mirrored from what I intended. Guess what I did..?

Once I realized what I was doing I aborted.

[EvilGenius 0]

ridebmxbikes

So I was trying to learn 450's today and accidentally turned right instead of left and had to turn it into a 630. Anyone ever have this issue?

You've got the adding rotation sorted and clearly not giving up on the gates so just try and focus on trusting your rears......hang on what do you mean this isn't soFPiDaRF?!

[The111 1]

ridebmxbikes

So I was trying to learn 450's today and accidentally turned right instead of left and had to turn it into a 630. Anyone ever have this issue?

Lots of people have had the "issue" of making bad decisions in this sport. Pretty much all of us, if we're being honest. Some get to live to tell about it. Abort next time; that is the lesson to learn here. Throwing extra "accidental" turns into a swoop is a recipe for disaster.

The consequence of aborting: you don't get to swoop.
The potential consequences of diving at the ground for some extra indeterminate unplanned amount of time: you know the answer.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Yanni 0]

Planing out in the wrong direction and flying away from the landing area has catastrophic consequences when the tandem doesn't get there landing photos/video.

Here is a bit of a question. Definitely not ideal practice but just food for thought. Just how flyable are big turns? I haven't messed around with more than a 360 but it seems to me that if your doing a large turn 450plus you have a lot more room to make adjustments. Granted 450 to 630 is a pretty big leap but definitely a lot better than turning a 270 into a 450. Turning a 270 into a 450 requiers a 67% increase in rotation speed to pull off which is a bit extreme. Turning a 450 into a 630 would only require about a 40% increase to pull off. So the bigger the turn the more you have to play with in a sense. Granted these are rough calculations leaving out plenty of variables but you get the point.

Door! Green! Enjoy

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Do you need to update your profile?

Yeah, with any turn you some give high or low with start iniation. I've done 90s from 250-500', 270s from 300 (never do that again) 450-800'. 450's I was starting around 800ish.

I didn't realize I did it till I had already done a 270 without a great direction to go to abort. I started high, probably started a little fasted than should. I had a little extra altitude. I aborted the 450 and did a 630. Would every abort lead to a bigger turn? Absolutely not!. 99% of my aborts result in a completely different landing area than intended.

Just didn't know if anybody else was as dyslexic as me?

[Yanni 0]

Yup way behind. I think I might just change it to my A license number and put my jumps back at 100. It would be entertaining enough. Updating that is almost as bad as logbooking.

Door! Green! Enjoy

[c_dog 1]

I can't believe this is a discussion topic. The word you should be using is not dyslexic. Dropzone.com... LOL.

[TommyBotten 0]

Those setups sound really low. I was taught, and I believe in doing your setup as high as possible, so any screw ups, you roll out higher. In comparison, I do my 270s higher than your 450s at around 900 and my 450s at around 1200.

As you've probably been taught, the pattern is extremely important while swooping, and I found it useful to have a "go" or "no go" decision with all checks green at the start of my base leg. Verify traffic, height, location in pattern, traffic, visualize maneuver, then relax. This might help you get better, more consistent results while giving you the awareness to abort early.

[YvonneWiggers 0]

ridebmxbikes

I didn't realize I did it till I had already done a 270 without a great direction to go to abort.

If I get it right, you were in the exact direction you were expecting to be after the planned 450 but a little higher because you did a 270 the other way instead. How was your intended landing direction not a good direction to abort? And how does adding a full 360 (leaving you in the same direction) make things any better?

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I aborted the 450 and did a 630.

[inline Thatsnothowthisworks.jpg]

"So I jump out, look up, and think 'Oh SHIT!...

It's PINK!!!'"
- army guy after his first staticline jump

[Jiggs 0]

Ding ding ding - winner!

To the OP - if you can't figure out the right way to turn or how many rotations you are going to do, you are doing too much.

Like your judgement, your placement and turn mechanics must be fairly crap / inconsistent

Get some coaching – I would also question the utility/complexity of 450s versus the ease and placement of a 270
It’s hard to judge your level without seeing you fly, but if you are asking this – it is probably a pretty good bet.

It’s great that you want to progress and do more, but one of the things that takes the most time to develop is judgement and building up a good sight picture. Would suggest that you focus on that with an appropriate coach to progress – doing your own thing tends to build in many bad habits that take even longer to address!
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I have only seen one guy add an extra rotation (a full 360) on a training camp, he almost got kicked off the DZ when people realised that he did not realise that he did an extra rotation (and almost went in). SO on the plus side you are way up on him! That said, to his credit, he turned around his headspace, did the training and is now a respectable pilot.

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

[danielcroft 2]

TommyBotten

Those setups sound really low. I was taught, and I believe in doing your setup as high as possible, so any screw ups, you roll out higher. In comparison, I do my 270s higher than your 450s at around 900 and my 450s at around 1200.

That's my MO as well.

Jiggs

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

So good.

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Ha, I've only said what I've done not what I do. I start my 270s about 720-740. I'd love to see you pull an efficient 270 from above 900 on my canopy and wingloading. My favorite past times are beating out crossbraced canopies because they skipped a lot of steps getting to 270s and their crossbraced canopies.

I know which way to turn...usually. I've done a few here and there over the past year. Maybe I should've just kept it to my self.

[Jiggs 0]

Your original post was about turning the wrong way - this is a bigger red flag. Without coaching you are more likely to make mistakes and develop bad habits that will take longer to get rid of if you want to compete
(Edit to add) - it also makes you less predictable and increases your risk (and the risk of others)
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I don't agree with the height comments of other posters. Height is dependent on the mechanic (and time to complete), the wing, loading, density altitude, etc. As long as the wing has time to recover it may be fine. Also for comp turns tend to be sharper rather than carvey that people use in normal dz swooping

FWIW a 450 on my 67 petra is from 1350. On my 82 leia it is 950. I think when I was doing 270s I had a velo90 and it was around 750 feet, maybe 800 on the 84 but I don't remember.

IMO - Without seeing your recovery arc and turn mechanic no one could say what is appropriate. I think the more relevant thing is the time of the recovery arc at the end of rotation (back on gate picture). Otherwise we are just making generalisations

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Jiggs

Your original post was about turning the wrong way - this is a bigger red flag. Without coaching you are more likely to make mistakes and develop bad habits that will take longer to get rid of if you want to compete
(Edit to add) - it also makes you less predictable and increases your risk (and the risk of others)

Well this is why I made the post. I realize it could be an issue and was looking for someone who has made/heard of this?
I don't want to keep mistakes made secret even if they seem pathetic. We're all in this together and maybe someone else hasn't even considered this ever happening. I sure know I haven't.

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I don't agree with the height comments of other posters. Height is dependent on the mechanic (and time to complete), the wing, loading, density altitude, etc. As long as the wing has time to recover it may be fine. Also for comp turns tend to be sharper rather than carvey that people use in normal dz swooping

I agree with you totally on this. There's a turn for every height . Why do people change their turn for competition? Is it because they are now gate dependent?

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FWIW a 450 on my 67 petra is from 1350. On my 82 leia it is 950. I think when I was doing 270s I had a velo90 and it was around 750 feet, maybe 800 on the 84 but I don't remember.

I have a few jumps on a velo 90. I remember starting between 750 and 800 for me personally. Man that thing was fast!

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IMO - Without seeing your recovery arc and turn mechanic no one could say what is appropriate. I think the more relevant thing is the time of the recovery arc at the end of rotation (back on gate picture). Otherwise we are just making generalisations

I've had problems with my recovery arc being too short for a while. After a few hundred 270s working on technique I started training for gates. Lost efficiency, always in the corner, never missed gates but sacrificed a lot of distance. Took canopy course. Spent the last few months being a good boy, increasing my recovery length, not even looking at gates. Found my power and distance again. Trying to play good. I even plan to attend a comp in florida in april. I hear you learn a lot at those things. Bigger turns than 270 are just novelty for me that I'd never even bring to a swoop n chug.

[ridebmxbikes 0]

YvonneWiggers

If I get it right, you were in the exact direction you were expecting to be after the planned 450 but a little higher because you did a 270 the other way instead. How was your intended landing direction not a good direction to abort? And how does adding a full 360 (leaving you in the same direction) make things any better?

Because if I aborted I would've been left at 300 feet looking like an idiot landing in the trailer park. The 360 from your set abort position left me at ground level skimming across the ground.

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I aborted the 450 and did a 630.

Haha, I needed this! (The meme I mean. It didn't follow the reply)

[The111 1]

Yanni

Planing out in the wrong direction and flying away from the landing area has catastrophic consequences when the tandem doesn't get there landing photos/video.

In this sport, the word catastrophic should really be reserved for things other than disappointing customers or embarrassing yourself with a boring landing.

The wise jumper keeps in mind what a skydiving catastrophe actually looks like, and what kind of decisions can lead to one. "Dive the plan" is something even the astute 50-jump wonder understands the reasoning behind.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com