Valkyrie Hybrid

[skow 6]

http://blog.performancedesigns.com/hybrid-valkyrie-available-now/

[danielcroft 2]

Stoked to have got my Valkyrie 75 Hybrid. Haven't had a chance to actually land it with a real swoop yet (thanks to high heat and turbulence) but happy so far with the small taste I've had.

I have around 500 jumps on my VK79, the VK75PS packs about as big although PD says it packs only a half size bigger with the sail ribs. I'm sure it'll settle out a little once I've got a few more jumps on it. I bumped my turn up 50ft but, haven't had a chance to land in conditions where I was willing to do my turn.

I'll update when I've had a chance to fly it more.

[topspark101 0]

Seems to me that VK hybrid packs up a little more than PD state.... half size bigger ! more like next size and then a bit ?
My VK 84 hybrid packs up more like VK90 and then some !
But.... it has so much more rears/toggle performance than VK which I thought was fantastic ! :-)

[rjklein4470 23]

any word on how many jumps the hybrid is good for?

[TommyBotten 0]

PD themselves say that the degradation of the sail fabric in the internals are less than or equal to that of the ZP used in their regular VKs, which in imho makes sense.

[skow 6]

Not sure if it's just my impression, but in case of both Valkyrie and Leia the fabric seems to degrade super fast.
When I compare e.g. my Pilot and Scirocco both which have around 400 jumps on them and my Leia which has about 150, Leia feels like has been washed several times and has at least 2-3 times more jumps on it then two other canopies.
Still flies nice though, but the fabric itself seems very worn out. Also applies to fairly new Valkyries which I've seen.

Anybody has similar experience?

[TommyBotten 0]

I have the same experience with mine. The VK with ~800 jumps feels even more worn than my old VE at 2000 jumps. The VK with 400 jumps feels comparable to the VE, but as you mention, the canopies still flies nicely. Easier to pack though ;)


I did get to test a side-by-side comparison with two same size VKs, one at 350 jumps DOM 2016-12, the other brand new (less than 10) DOM 2017-04 jumping every other for two days, about 15 jumps. The difference was bigger than I expected. It's hard when I don't have any numbers to tie it to, but the newer canopy felt crisper, faster and more rigid. Do note that there were differences in colors (and possibly fabric batch) that also might have an effect.

[skow 6]

I'm wondering is it the different kind of ZP fabric that is used or is it that due to high speed and pressure it just wears out much faster?

[rjklein4470 23]

PD says that the life of a canopy is between 1,000-1,500 jumps, but have seen canopy's last 2,500-3,500

http://www.performancedesigns.com/general-faqs/

I jumped the excalibur (sp) and it was only good for about 400 jumps.

[Alexg3265 0]

The coating on sail that gives it its stiffness, also breaks down easier when folded repeatedly. It will wear out much faster than zp will. You may notice that one side is coated instead of the fabric being impregnated with a flexible silicone as in zp. You'll notice that itll start to look whitish and the folds in it will start to flake over time... just my experience with sail vs zp... the hybrid will outperform the all zp for the first 300-600 jumps and then degrade quickly and settle out just below the zp performance as now the sail parts will be less dimensionally stable...

I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof...

[rjklein4470 23]

But, don't you think PD would have developed a special sail fabric based on all the testing with the Peregrine?

[shogo 0]

Just for clarification purpose :
You are talking about “ZP” fabric in your post, right? Since you are comparing the fabric to Pilot and Sirocco.

edit: Alexg3265 , I think skow and TommyBotten are talking about ZP. Not sail.

[skow 6]

Yes, I'm talking about ZP. Even though Valkyrie Hybrid has ribs made of sail, it still is mostly made of ZP.

Alexg3265

the hybrid will outperform the all zp for the first 300-600 jumps and then degrade quickly and settle out just below the zp performance

If I got it right, Alexg3265 is talking about the sail ribs, which will degrade over time

[shogo 0]

skow

I'm wondering is it the different kind of ZP fabric that is used or is it that due to high speed and pressure it just wears out much faster?

I think the PD and the NZ use different kind of ZP today (maybe newer?). I am not trying to say that the fabric they use are inferior to other fabrics. But I have noticed that their ZP, in at least some of their canopies, are different from the ZP I remember as ZP. I don’t think the differences come from batch variations. and your findings of lack of longevity are interesting.

I think of “ZP” fabric, in general, to be plasticky; crunchy; and slippery, because ZP canopies that I have owned previously were plasticky; crunchy; and slippery. So maybe I should say I used to think of ZP that way, till recently.

My buddy’s JVX (DOM 2010); his Leia (DOM 2015); a JVX I briefly owned (DOM 2011); my VK and other buddies VKs (DOM 2015-16) all have/had softer feel to them. Felt thinner. The ZP fabric used in them are not the ZP with plasticky; crunchy; and slippery feel.

I don’t own most of my ZP canopies anymore, but I still have a katana (DOM 2003) and a stiletto (DOM 96). These canopies have plasticky; crunchy; and slippery feel compared with my VK (sold recently). At least I have had these fabrics side by side for comparison. So my observation on the differences in ZP in some canopies vs others, I can say, is not based on a conspiracy theory.

I also own a helix (DOM: 2016). It has plasticky; crunchy; and slippery ZP on top and bottom skin. The ZP on my helix is definitely different from the ZP in my VK. Similar to the differences between F1-11 and low-bulk fabric.

I also noticed lots of permanent creases/markings on my plasticky; crunchy; and slippery katana (from being folded and compressed). But I did not see that on my VK. So maybe softer fabric at least has that benefit.

[Alexg3265 0]

yes im only referring to the sail parts... (ribs) that initial stiffness that the sail has that gives it the edge up in performance degrades quicker than zp does and will settle out softer than similarly worn in ZP so will actually underperform the zp ribs after 3-600 jumps. The top and bottom skins are zp and will wear the same as zp... you know since its the same shit...
And, no they didnt develop any "special sail" that im aware of with the peregrine. The peregrine is the F1 of the parachute world and expected to get 4-500 jumps on it and then retired. they are developed to do one thing and really well and not intended for a long life. Its a trade off... Better performance while new that degrades quickly. Its the same fabric a lot of paragliders are made of. Its stiff and crinkly when new and holds its shape exceptionally well. After repeatedly being packed and folded and crumpled, the coating making it stiff flakes off and breaks down leaving you with essentially an f-111 equivalent as far as stiffness and porosity is concerned, and is eventually less stable than even ZP. hope this clarifies it

I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof...

[28337 2]

skow

Not sure if it's just my impression, but in case of both Valkyrie and Leia the fabric seems to degrade super fast.
When I compare e.g. my Pilot and Scirocco both which have around 400 jumps on them and my Leia which has about 150, Leia feels like has been washed several times and has at least 2-3 times more jumps on it then two other canopies.
Still flies nice though, but the fabric itself seems very worn out. Also applies to fairly new Valkyries which I've seen.

Anybody has similar experience?

Yes, I can confirm that. Seems that ZP-fabrics has been changed in 2013. Canopies made bebore 2013 have much thicker ZP. This difference can be noticed at PD, NZ, Skylark. New Valkyries with 50-100 jumps looks like old shit, comparing to "old" Velos with 500-600 jumps.

[topspark101 0]

Like most industries.... make the consumer buy more.. using cheaper materials... less bang for your $.... i'm afraid it business/profit....!

[rjklein4470 23]

I am not sure about this comment ^^^^^^^^^^^

We know that PD, and all the top manufacturers do lot's of testing. So without input from one of their engineers, we are all guessing.

I really doubt the manufacturers are using cheaper materials, but I could be wrong.

Rob

[danielcroft 2]

I've been told by people I trust at PD point blank that the material on the VK is the same as the VC/VE. Now, that may mean they switched the material earlier but, would be inconsistent with people's theories that a new VC would last longer than a VK - material that is, not lines.

[rjklein4470 23]

I guess the only real way to find out about the degradation of performance is to have flight data the first day, and every day after.

I love having new canopies, but hate packing them! So maybe the softer material is to aid in ease of packing thus better customer feedback.lolol

[topspark101 0]

Do you believe PD are in business to help you skydive as cheap as possible... they are a business and need to make money... if you can make a product using cheaper materials without affecting safety, they're going to do it.... any sane business would !..... dude, you're living in the land of milk and honey ! :-)

[Alexg3265 0]

Nobody is arguing that.... Were ONLY talking about degradation of the rib sail material. the bottom and upper skins and i believe the cross braces are all the same as everything else ZP... Their fabric suppliers have changed and have provided updated newer materials that may or may not be better... Feel a new pd parachute and one from early 2000's and feel the fabric side by side. Its definitely different... but thats not the discussion at hand. The sail fabric they use and everyone else for that matter, breaks down faster than zp. It will settle out to be less dimensionally stable than zp but will outperform while new.... thats it.

I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof...

[topspark101 0]

I've been jumping PD canopies since the mid 90's... and the material has changed on the VE range... which I have jumped numerous, as well as the KA range...? Also ..been jumping VK's since release...... so have a good reference of material quality...! ? :-)