Pilot (9-cell) and Flare

[GoGoGadget 0]

New jumper with 13 jumps on my Pilot 210, loaded at 1.1 and I am having the same issues with my flare. Completed the B license canopy course and the instructor recommended I have the lines shortened. During the course it took two wraps on the lines and a long hold at full flare to stall it. I had my rigger shorten them by 2 inches. Jumped twice after that and felt like I was getting a good strong flare at altitude, but when I came in to land it was very meh and had me sliding on my ass. There was almost no wind, 2-3kts.

Is it unreasonable to expect to stand up in no wind with this wing?

[FlyEpic 0]

I put 22 jumps on a brand new 9 cell Pilot ZPX 188 rental canopy with WL at 0.95, then went to a Sabre 2 170 loaded to 1.04 Canopy had less than 50 jumps on it when I started jumping it. I found the Pilot in some ways less demanding to fly, fairly easy to land in different conditions right from when I first jumped it. However once I dialled in the Sabre2 landings I vastly preferred them. I love how it flies. I prefer how it opens, a bit faster but softer than the pilot tended to. The flare is wicked powerful on Sabre2, even at my lighter WL.
When I get the timing of the flare perfect and fully flare it, landings are amazingly soft with zero forward speed left. A lot of the power feels like it is at the lower end of the flare. How much of that difference I feel at landing those canopies on the same DZ is the effect of WL versus canopy design differences, I don't know.
Just my experience, other people's may vary.

[EvilGenius 0]

Totally reasonable to stand up landing no wind landings with this wing. I had Pilots in varying sizes from 190 to 150 from jumps 7 through to 186 and butt sliding was a rare occurrence. At my DZ we land with the arrow regardless of the wind direction to crosswind landings are the norm which is a similar deal no wind landing.

Interestingly I had my lines shortened with a story pretty much exactly like yours, however I then realised that I should stick my whole fist through the toggles not just my first two fingers (DOH) and eventually ended up getting the lines lengthened.

[GoGoGadget 0]

EvilGenius

Totally reasonable to stand up landing no wind landings with this wing. I had Pilots in varying sizes from 190 to 150 from jumps 7 through to 186 and butt sliding was a rare occurrence. At my DZ we land with the arrow regardless of the wind direction to crosswind landings are the norm which is a similar deal no wind landing.

Interestingly I had my lines shortened with a story pretty much exactly like yours, however I then realised that I should stick my whole fist through the toggles not just my first two fingers (DOH) and eventually ended up getting the lines lengthened.

I am putting my whole hand in there. Figured it is easier to hold onto the brakes when also pulling on risers. Might grab the top of the toggle or take a wrap next time and see if that helps with the flare.

We also fly with the arrow regardless of wind. Only stand up I have on it was on a long spot where I did not make it back, so was able to steer into the wind and land off DZ. It was a perfect landing that pissed me off since it was during the canopy course and he was filming the landings for critique. My one good one and nobody saw it. LOL

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

During the course it took two wraps on the lines and a long hold at full flare to stall it. I had my rigger shorten them by 2 inches.

If you need 2 wraps to be able to stall it, I'd think you needed to shorten it by more than 2 in. Gotta analyze it properly.

About 3-4 in shorter was needed for mine. Grabbing the top of the toggle instead of inside the loop (bottom of the toggle) allows for more total stroke length and made a big difference on my Pilot 210

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[skydiverek 63]

I had the same problem on my Pilot 168. I had my breaklines shortened by 4 inches. There is still some very small slack in the steering lines when in full flight. The landing are MUCH better now!

[GoGoGadget 0]

1st two jumps last Friday I slid in. No wind. Wind picked up a bit for the next two and I was able to stand it up. I will get him to shorten them up another two inches. If that does not do it, I don't know what else to do as there is not enough to room to do more. I let them all the way up and checked the control lines as I pulled down. I think 2" is about all the slack there is in it.

[CrashProne 4]

GoGoGadget

1st two jumps last Friday I slid in. No wind. Wind picked up a bit for the next two and I was able to stand it up. I will get him to shorten them up another two inches. If that does not do it, I don't know what else to do as there is not enough to room to do more. I let them all the way up and checked the control lines as I pulled down. I think 2" is about all the slack there is in it.

Honestly, I would recommend you grab someone you jump with, and ask them to film a couple of your landings. Watching those and getting some critique from a canopy coach can go a long ways to improving your landings. Make sure you're 'finishing' that flare, I'm willing to bet you're leaving some energy on the table before touchdown. The Pilot has PLENTY of flare to produce soft standup landings.

[Pendragon 1]

Shouldn't be anything wrong with the flare on a Pilot. The microline control lines do shrink considerably on use - I had to have the toggles moved 2" from 300 jumps use (IIRC, it was a few years ago!). If that's the case then you won't be getting the power of a full flare.

I'd first check the line lengths back to the manufacturer's manual. If the line set has done 350+ jumps you may need to replace the lot - or it may be a case of making sure the toggles are roughly correct.

If the lines check out ok, then get someone to watch you land. You might just be flaring too late

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[GoGoGadget 0]

It was my canopy coach filming my landing and flare who recommended taking 4 inches out. The rig had 60 jumps on it when I bought it and I have put 15 more on it. Is that enough to change it?

[Guodian 0]

I can only comment from my personal unscientific experience. I put about 100 jumps on a pilot with loads from 0.85 up to 1.15. I think the flair really blows below a loading of 1:1. At .85 I just can't get it to plane out and flair. However, at 1.15, I have enough speed that I can even get it to lift me up several feet if I want. The only time I don't stand up easily is when I personally mess up the timing of the flair.

You probably could benefit from a two stage flair where you stab the brakes down from full flight to NO more than 1/4 brake. The canopy quickly increases the angle of attach (begins to flair) but mainly just quickly goes into level flight with very little downward velocity depending on conditions. Then the proceed with a progressive deeper toggle until you finish the flair. Brian Germain talks about this a lot and it really works for me.

I think the Pilot is a fantastic canopy and you could jump one up to any experience level and have fun with a little wing loading.

That being said, I think the Pilot is by far the worst flairing canopy of the ones I have experience on. The Sabre2 and Stiletto are my favorite. You may not be ready for a semi-elliptical or elliptical wing yet. But even though they are faster and steeper glide, The landing flair power is very strong.

Sorry to go off topic. I know you are interested in the Pilot. But thought a little more about comparing it to others might help.

Good luck with those landings. Remember that a stand up landing is not always a good landing. You can absorb a lot of shock when younger. But I am 60 yrs and now I like to tip toe out. Repeated hard stand up landings will hurt your joints over time.

[GoGoGadget 0]

Guodian

Good luck with those landings. Remember that a stand up landing is not always a good landing. You can absorb a lot of shock when younger. But I am 60 yrs and now I like to tip toe out. Repeated hard stand up landings will hurt your joints over time.

I am 49y/o and have had 2 ACL repairs on one knee and two other surgeries on the other, so if I cannot land it softly, I will happily slide in on my ass. :D But for dignity sake, and simply being proficient, I would prefer to stand it up.

[GoGoGadget 0]

Got my rigger to shorten them another 2", so 4" total, and got 3 jumps in. Light headwind for the first 2 and got a good flare and stood up the landing. 3rd jump was almost no wind and what there was, was 90deg crosswind. Still a good flare and stood it up beautifully. Added bonus of it being 3ft from the target cone. Yay me. LOL.

[shadeland 5]

Quote

That being said, I think the Pilot is by far the worst flairing canopy of the ones I have experience on. The Sabre2 and Stiletto are my favorite. You may not be ready for a semi-elliptical or elliptical wing yet. But even though they are faster and steeper glide, The landing flair power is very strong.

Technically, the Pilot is a semi-elliptical canopy. The planform for a Pilot, Sabre 2, and Stiletto are pretty similar. Tapered leading and trailing edges.

This is from my canopy course slide deck:

[shadeland 5]

Quote

That being said, I think the Pilot is by far the worst flairing canopy of the ones I have experience on. The Sabre2 and Stiletto are my favorite. You may not be ready for a semi-elliptical or elliptical wing yet. But even though they are faster and steeper glide, The landing flair power is very strong.

I used to agree, but having gone through some scenarios I think that's not really the case.

I think the Pilot, like the Safire 2 and Safire 3, have a much deeper "power spot". Something like a Sabre 2 or Stiletto seem to have a pretty shallow power spot. As a result, if your brake lines are too long, you won't really miss out on much flare power.

With the Pilot (or Safire 2/3), if your brake lines are too long, you'll miss out on the power spot, and the flare will suck. That happens on my Pilot 150. If I take a wrap, however, I get a great flare on my Pilots.

Is that a design flaw on the Pilots? (and Safires?) debatable. But now I wrap when I land (having played with 1 wrap, 2 wraps, nice and high) and it makes all the difference.

[skow 6]

shadeland

I think the Pilot, like the Safire 2 and Safire 3, have a much deeper "power spot".

That's also my exact experience. You have to pull more with Pilot in the first phase of the flare, or lengthen your brake lines (but in this case using fronts will not be fun as you'll be pulling the tail of your canopy at the same time)

[danielcroft 2]

On the elliptical-ocity (heh) of parachutes, I think this John Le Blanc chap knows a thing or two: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcOOAWpwSTM

It's a shame that these BPA videos don't get a wider distribution, there are some really good talks in there.

[shadeland 5]

danielcroft

On the elliptical-ocity (heh) of parachutes, I think this John Le Blanc chap knows a thing or two: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcOOAWpwSTM

It's a shame that these BPA videos don't get a wider distribution, there are some really good talks in there.

Yup, John Leblanc was where I learned about that.

[GoGoGadget 0]

4 more jumps yesterday with the shorter control lines. Plenty of flare power. 2 downwind landings and I got that "Oh shit this is fast" feeling and was a little too aggressive on my flare. Even with a tailwind I popped up too much. So shitty landing but all my fault.