Looking for advice

[Yoshi 0]

Hello. ok heres my story I have over 300 jumps and of them about 15-20 are belly.. I mostly freefly an I really need to get into some rw...the reason is in about a year I want to obtain sevral ratings including aff static line coach etc... I have been on some larger (~20 way) belly dives and I think that my ff experience has helped me to learn alot about flying.. the thing is I am not all into 2 ways on my belly.. so heres the question..how many of you belly fliers out there get really pissed off when someone misses their slot on a dive... when I ff we dirt dive "lets just go have some fun...and you are base" I never really got into rw...but now I need the experience, but I dont want to be the guy who everyone doesnt want to jump with because I miss my slot here and there...
any comments?
-yoshi

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this space for rent.

[BikerBabe 0]

Well, I hate to say this, but if you do want to get those ratings you mentioned, your best bet is to either hit the wind tunnel, or bite the bullet and do 2-way drills with a coach or someone you trust that is a good belly flier.

Your belly flying skills aren't going to improve that much just by doing big ways. You may get to be a good swooper, but once you're in your slot, you aren't doing too much of the type of flying you'll need in order to get those ratings.

You need to be able to turn on your center point, vary your fall rate (sometimes dramatically), move forward, back, and side to side, and be so solid and stable that someone who is deliberately trying to flip you or put you unstable won't be able to do it (especially important for AFF). Seriously, if you can't do all those things well, how can you demonstrate or even expect a student to be able to do them?

If you decide to get coaching, I would recommend starting with fall rate drills. I know, it's boring, but believe me, you'll need it. Then move into the translational movement (forward, back, sideslide). THEN, only then, work on turns.

I'd say the quickest (and most fun!) way to get this done is to save your $$ and hit the tunnel. Go to a Tunnel Camp, either with the NSL, or Airspeed, or whoever. Tell them what you want, and they'll work with you to see that you get it.

As for your question on slots...a good load organizer is never afraid to cut people, and the other jumpers on the load know that.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[skybytch 273]

Definetely agree that the place to start if you want a coach and/or AFF rating is basic two way drill dives and/or a tunnel camp.

Think of it this way. All the things you'll learn on those simple belly two ways (or at tunnel camp) are the same things that hard core four way jumpers learn. I've been told by a very highly respected big way organizer that they can easily turn a good four way jumper into a good big way jumper; it's not as easy to turn a good big way jumper into a good four way jumper. The skills you'll learn doing these dives are the basic building blocks of belly flying.

btw, this is another reason I recommend that new jumpers spend at least 50-100 jumps (more is better) on their bellies before moving on to freeflying... Had you done so, right now you'd only have to "freshen" your skills instead of having to learn them basically from scratch.

[AggieDave 6]

I'm in the same boat you are man! You know what I'm doing? Skydive U. Gonna start it here in a couple weeks at my DZ.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ltdiver 3]

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I'm in the same boat you are man! You know what I'm doing? Skydive U. Gonna start it here in a couple weeks at my DZ.

Some of the best $$ I ever spent was taking the Skydive U. course back when I had ~100 jumps. I learned to skydive through S/L and then practically did solos for the next 100. I was at a very small Cessna DZ that did tandems and I was the only other experienced skydiver on the airport most of the time.

If you're really serious, at least start with Skydive U. (to get the basics) then spend the $$ in the wind tunnel. The 2-way drills will happen when you try and control a student in the AFF pre-course work.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Yoshi 0]

thanks for all of your comments... I guess Ill be really biting down this year to hone my skills.. dont get me wrong.. I am not a complete flailing idiot on my belly.. I can usually get to where I want to go, but when going into an instructors position I want to KNOW that I can take wahtever the student trows at me... I dont want to be and AVERAGE instructor...i want to be the best:) well in feb I am headed down to z-hills for some fun jumps..Ill prob. stick to ff for that and once the season kicks in at my home dz I kow there are quite a few rw guys that will work with me... thanks again
-yoshi

_________________________________________
this space for rent.

[Albatross 0]

If you are serious about improving your skills,get a coach, some 2 0n 2s and some tunnel time. Don't depend on the "old guys" At the DZ to be doing it right. SOme may be just faking it and others doing it the "old" way. Leaning it right is the expensive way to save a lot of money in the end.

Chris

[kallend 2,106]

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If you are serious about improving your skills,get a coach, some 2 0n 2s and some tunnel time. Don't depend on the "old guys" At the DZ to be doing it right. SOme may be just faking it and others doing it the "old" way. Leaning it right is the expensive way to save a lot of money in the end.

Yes, those "old" guys that did the first 10-way, and the first 50-way, and the first 100-way, and the first 200-way, and the first 100-way sequential, what the hell did THEY know, bunch of incompetent fakers?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BikerBabe 0]

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well in feb I am headed down to z-hills for some fun jumps..

Perfect chance to hop in the tunnel for even just a few minutes.

Talk to the folks there...those that work there are good coaches, and if they are too busy, they can hook you up with someone who can work with you. Heck, even if you only get 15 minutes, trust me, it's worth it.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[weid14 0]

John, times and methods change, it's not that they don't know anything, but trechnique changes with knowledge and skill level. The "cutting edge" flying may not be practiced by some of the more seasoned skydivers. It's not like they can't teach you anything, it's just that it may not be the current method...

[kallend 2,106]

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John, times and methods change, it's not that they don't know anything, but trechnique changes with knowledge and skill level. The "cutting edge" flying may not be practiced by some of the more seasoned skydivers. It's not like they can't teach you anything, it's just that it may not be the current method...

He didn't say "current" or "cutting edge", he said "right".

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[4waynut 0]

I think Albatross might define "right" as completely stable (cannot be taken out by someone flying below or above), arms in a usable position in front of the body (no contorting required to take grips), head up to see the skydive, arch from the hip rather than the belly in order to engage the legs....crisp movements, sharp turns, complete stops on a dime.....100-foot vertical adjustments without de-arching (using arm and leg surfaces only)....

WHY OH WHY AREN'T ALL NEW SKYDIVERS LEARNING THESE BODY FLIGHT SKILLS???? GO TO THE TUNNEL BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE AND YOU LEARN BAD HABITS...JUST DO IT!!! DON'T LISTEN TO THE RESIDENT EXPERTS AT YOUR DZ WHO DON'T KNOW ABOUT BODY FLIGHT, RUN PAST THEM ON YOUR WAY TO BOOK A FLIGHT TO ORLANDO TO ATTEND A TUNNEL CAMP. YOU WILL OUT-FLY MOST EXPERTS AT YOUR DZ IN 100 JUMPS IF YOU LEARN CORRECTLY, DO IT MAN!

I feel better now.

[BikerBabe 0]

I tend to agree with you.

Some of the things I've heard from the "expert instructors" at my DZ:

1. Arms in the "lazy-W". It helps you stay stable, you can control your fall rate or any other number of reasons.
2. If you want to turn fast, look in the direction you want to turn
3. Bend your spine in the direction you want to turn (the laws of physics need not apply...)
4. If you go unstable, put your body in a big X! Arms and legs straight out and stiff (!!!!)
5. Tracking: look down, chin to chest, and not a word about de-arching...

Plus many others. Argh. It's painful. And when I suggest the tunnel to people, all I get is "OMG! That's SOOOOOOOOOOO expensive!"

The thing is, I want to get my coach rating, and I'm going to have to teach parts of the FJC under the supervision of these people. And they are going to tell me I'm teaching it wrong when I tell the students something different from what they learned 20 years ago.

I'm not saying all the instructors are like this, but a few definitely are set in their ways...

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[ltdiver 3]

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WHY OH WHY AREN'T ALL NEW SKYDIVERS LEARNING THESE BODY FLIGHT SKILLS????

I think you answered your own question HERE

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[smooth 0]

the horror . . . the horror!

[kallend 2,106]

So - who's going to tell Jerry Bird he's been doing it wrong all these years?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jceman 1]

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So - who's going to tell Jerry Bird he's been doing it wrong all these years?

No one.

Two reasons: he keeps up with current methods of flying and more importantly, he probably couldn't hear you anywho!

Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money.

Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them?

[steve1 5]

One thing that is nice about a smaller DZ is that often you will be asked to jump with more experienced jumpers just to fill out a load. I've jumped with and received free coaching from some world class jumpers just because they were short on jumpers that day, and they couldn't find anyone else to jump with. Later as my skills improved I was still often asked to jump with them. I'm sure this wouldn't happen much at a bigger D.Z. Steve1

[kallend 2,106]

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So - who's going to tell Jerry Bird he's been doing it wrong all these years?

No one.

Two reasons: he keeps up with current methods of flying and more importantly, he probably couldn't hear you anywho!

How about these guys, then?

www.freak-brother.com/pics/gk2.jpg

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,106]

Just watched the video of the 300-way world record. It's truly amazing that they ever did it, when you see how few of them are flying "right" by your definition.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[weid14 0]

John, no one ever said there was a "right" way and a "wrong" way. there is the best way for a given situation. It may interest you to also read Kate's account of her tunnel camp and what she learned. It was in Skydiving magazine.

[Albatross 0]

O.K. I started this "argument" so i will try to clear up the intent. I am not saying that everyone should fly in exactly the same position. I am not saying that the people who developed RW and Big way techniques were doing it wrong. I am not saying that you can't be a good or great skydiver without doing the tunnel camps and all that. What I am saying is that the top 4-way, and 8-way competitors all have some characteristics that are common. They fly with their heads up and their hands in, in a nutural position. The exact position will verry due to body dynamics and other personal factors. You do not see Airspeed, the Knights, or Majik flying wiht their arms high and their heads low. I am a big proponant of getting coaching and instruction in the basics and think that these guys and gals have spent 1000's of hours in the air and in the tunnel practicing and learning. They found this stuff independantly from trial and error and what ends up working best. Now if there are not some fundimental things that make for good body flight why have 100s of people from all over the world or country all come to similar basic positions for body flight if it is not the most efficient one currently known? Teams differ on how to fly a block or how to take grips or what is the best way to build a random, but they all seem to have common aspects in the way they fly their bodies that we would all do well to try and learn from. I agree with weid14 about Kate. She is a great skydiver and person I am fortunate to know personally. She was an awsome flier but her account tells you how much there is to learn for someone as good as she was.

Chris

[kallend 2,106]

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John, no one ever said there was a "right" way and a "wrong" way. there is the best way for a given situation. It may interest you to also read Kate's account of her tunnel camp and what she learned. It was in Skydiving magazine.

" Don't depend on the "old guys" At the DZ to be
doing it right. SOme may be just faking it and others doing it the "old"
way. Leaning it right is the expensive way to save a lot of money in the
end. "


Actually, he's now said what I hoped he'd say originally - that this relates primarily to 4-way and 8-way competition RW.

Apparently it's news to some, but there are other types of RW, and you can't always chunk out the entire formation on exit. Sometimes the "old" way works just fine - such as big ways where stability, ability to absorb a hard dock, diving, floating, etc., is as important, if not more so, than fast turn rate and convenient presentation of grips. I suspect that's why on the 300 way video you see a whole lot of excellent skydivers in a boxman or lazy W position. Some things can't (yet) be simulated in a tunnel.

And yes, I read Kate's article.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.