Wind Tunnels’ Long Term Effect on Competition

[darkwing 5]

many other sports suffer from the gap between the haves and the have nots. Even swimming--if you can afford a custom, super-duper high tech swimsuit for a couple of thousand dollars you will be faster. The pro teams in skydiving, with access to jumps, gear, tunnels, etc., will overwhelm non-pros.

Personally, I think that the field should be leveled when possible, for example in the above swimming example. I think the super-suits should be banned. Not everyone will agree.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Dogwap 0]

You make an interesting Point regarding the wind tunnel evolving into a whole new sport.

There have no doubt already been tunnel competitions in Orlando. I wonder if in the future they’ll draw more competitors than skydiving meets, and if skydivers will still dominate.

Someone commented earlier on a proposed rule change that would have made exits irrelevant by starting the clock a few seconds after teams leave the door. Seems to me that this change would be a step in the wrong direction.

Maybe we should start thinking about ways to change the Formation Skydiving Rules to reward freefall training as opposed to tunnel training.

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To those who say it’s a small world, let me tell you,
I’ve seen the world, and it’s only getting bigger.

[NeedToJump 0]

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Maybe we should start thinking about ways to change the Formation Skydiving Rules to reward freefall training as opposed to tunnel training.

8 way RW and 10 way speed (no grip, no show) are probably much less affected by Tunnel time than 4 way is. There's just too little space to practice 8 way and you can't practice floating and diving out trying to complete a formation on the hill. I'm not offering any suggestions as to how you could change the rules to reward freefall training, but just adding another element of RW into the discussion.

I guess if you weren't allowed to take grips on exit you would need significantly more air time. I personally like the 4-way rules the way they are, but it's just a thought.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[Swoopdiva 0]

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8 way RW and 10 way speed (no grip, no show) are probably much less affected by Tunnel time than 4 way is.

Yep..at the moment....and will no doubt remain so for speed, but eventually, assuming the tunnels get the kind of interest predicted by Sky Venture, who's to say we won't see tunnels big enough to accommodate 8way (er...there already is one, isn't there? Imagine several more) and even 16-way.

Imagine an arena with multiple spectator-friendly tunnels, a different 4way team in each one, kind of like Wimbledon but for tunnels? All it needs is the major backing of a smart entrepreneur and huge media exposure. You see whuffos watching skydivers in the Orlando tunnel - they're hypnotised.
This could easily become a televised spectator sport.

And the concept of 2 minute slots in the tunnel - irrelevant. You could do 'endurance 4way' ...ha ha...like a marathon for tunnel bunnies. How many points can ASPD do in a solid hour? May even get to the point where you start to see something like tunnel ballet - elaborate costumes and even storylines set to music? Sounds like bollox now but push the concept to its extreme...it is an amazing medium in which to work and whuffos LOVE it.

[NeedToJump 0]

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May even get to the point where you start to see something like tunnel ballet - elaborate costumes and even storylines set to music?

LOL, I'd definitely pay to see some of the world class teams dress up and to 4-way ballet

What your describing would be years away at best. It takes time to build that much public interest and media support in something, but it's an interesting idea. I think if that ever happened though that it would serve to further differentiate the tunnel from skydiving. The two would grow to be completely different as opposed to one being a training tool for the other.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[DanBC 0]

Whether you are training for serious 4-Way competition or going through the AFF Program, I don't see there being any negative effect on the sport from utilizing the tunnel as a training tool.

The tunnel is an advantage for everyone. Like other pilots, we now have a flight simulator. We can practice our skills and moves with far greater time efficiency than we have every done before.

This allows us to learn far more quickly, to reach higher levels much sooner, and for the top teams to push the bar ever higher.

Everyone will improve. But the individuals and teams that commit more time, money, heart and soul will take it further than anyone else. This has always been the case and nothing has changed because of having access to a wind tunnel.

No matter what place your team finishes in, the higher level your team is skydiving at the more fun you are having. Averaging 10 points is more fun than averaging 8. Averaging 12 is more fun than 10. It just keeps getting better. So enjoy the game and don't worry about who has got an advantage. It is there for whoever wants it.

As for the non-competitive skydivers, the tunnel is also a great tool.

AFF students are much more likely to continue in the sport when they aren't scared away by being out of control in actual freefall.

Weekend jumpers that begin to get bored because the average weekend jumps don't challenge them anymore will have a way to continue to push themselves. Everyone will get better, they will enjoy skydiving more than ever and because of this they will make more jumps not less.

I'm getting excited just talking about it.

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[Swoopdiva 0]

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But the individuals and teams that commit more time, money, heart and soul will take it further than anyone else.

Too true.

Don't take some of my comments above to mean I am somehow 'down' on the tunnel. I am a 100% tunnelbunny through and through...In fact I have had the 'unfair advantage' rubbish directed at me and my team. I believe the tunnel is an awesome tool that can only do good for the sport as a whole. There should be one on every DZ! But it does provide the ability for dedicated teams and individuals to concentrate their efforts into shorter time frames and achieve specific results more quickly.

This means that 'accelerated progression' for tunnelled-up teams is fully evident; prior to the tunnel, in some parts of the world it didn't matter how dedicated you were, the dreadful weather placed a depressing limit on how much airtime you could actually get. The tunnel has changed that. Tunnelphobes quite naturally see rapid progression in tunnel-users and yet somehow fail to see that it is there for all - the progression the tunnel can provide is so rapid that 'unfair' advantages slip away fairly quickly when you spend some time in there.

And the tunnel is bloody good fun.

On another note, is it just me or does the epithet 'Newbie' under the name DanBC seem somewhat incongruous? How come Greg Gasson got 'Maestro' under his name???? Pah. Favouritism, pure and simple.



*edited due to stupidity*

[Zoltan 0]

"There should be one on every DZ"

yep.. but there is no WT on everu DZ and it makes different between teams on competition...

z

[Ron 10]

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"There should be one on every DZ"

yep.. but there is no WT on everu DZ and it makes different between teams on competition...

Yes, but some places have better Weather, others have better aircraft.

The access to the wind tunnel is just one more factor when you decide where to train(Or where to live).

Does a tunnel make you better? Yep..

Is it unfair? Nope...

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[darkwing 5]

Most of the issues here have been raised for decades in other contexts.

1. The Golden Knights have an unfair advantage because they jump for free all the time
2. Team XXXX has an unfair advantage because they have the "right" airplane at their DZ
3. Team YYYY has an unfair advantage because they are sponsored
4. Jumper ZZ has an unfair advantage because his dad owns a DZ
5. Swimmer BB has an unfair advantage because his parents could afford lessons
6. Gymnast CC has an unfair advantage because his parents sent him away when he was 4 years old for training.

It all kind of reminds me of a very good short story titled "Harrison Bergeron." Go read it.

I just figured I'd shut up and skydive.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Zoltan 0]

I did not say 'unfair'. I said it makes difference.. and yes it does. I have no problem with it.

z

[Zoltan 0]

ok, but consider that all the 'unfair' factors are skydive related... windtunel is the only thing which is not parachuting related at all and gives incredible huge advantage for some competitor skydivers....so I understand that there are guys out there training hard and has bad feeling when they are beaten up by another team jsut beacause the other team has easier acces to a wind tunel.

It is normal... the geography of 4way world is a bit different after wind tunel came in regular use :)

z

[Swoopdiva 0]

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windtunel is the only thing which is not parachuting related at all and gives incredible huge advantage for some competitor skydivers

Hmmm...ok then what about mega-booties? Not strictly 'parachuting related' either. I think I must be missing your point.

[Zoltan 0]

mega-booties are the things you use during the skydive and available for everybody...

WindTunel is a tool which has a great effect on your bodyflying skills and not available for everybody.
And WindTunel is _not_ a skydiving tool... it is a room with artificial strong vertical airflow :) you use it before, after or instead of skydiving... like creepers, but a bit more expensive and more effective.

Imagine the 4way world without creepers and dirtdiving....and then imagine that only few teams has the opportunity to use creepers... Of course they have huge advantage :)

Is it clear?

[Ron 10]

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WindTunel is a tool which has a great effect on your bodyflying skills and not available for everybody.

How is it not available for everybody?

You were here for the 120 ways...You could have just as easily done a weeks worth of tunnel.

You got 600.00 bucks...SkyVenture will gladly take it....And soon SkyVenture Perris will take it as well.

There is a tunnel in France.

The only tunnel you just can't buy time in is in Ft.Bragg (And IMO it is heads above any other tunnel).

Other than that there are tunnels you can get into.

It is directly compared to aircraft...You need to jump an otter for training...And you DZ only has Cessnas. You have to go to where the planes are...Its not unfair.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Zoltan 0]

Sure it is not unfair :) I just sai that i understand if somebody feels it unfair.

Yes, there is windtunel in Orlando and i was thinking about to go there (as few of us used the opportunity) but I was concentrating on the big ways and I was a bit worried if I get addicted with one session :) and then I come back to home where the nearest windtunel is still like 1000 miles away... :) (my home DZ is 12 minutes by bicycle from home and work)
and anyway our team has plan.. a plan which fits to the reallity and makes happy everyone of us.. and this plan does not contain windtunel trainings :) instead we do some creeper trainings at winter and drinking beer and having sauna together :)

z

[Remster 30]

To me, it boils down to your goals in skydiving. If you goal is to turn more points, then tunnel time makes perfect sense.

If your goal is to skydive and have fun doing it, then its more questionable.

Remster

[andy2 0]

Im trying to scrap up enough money to spend an hour in the tunnel. Am I going to be competing anytime soon? No. Will I have more fun skydiving bc I hopefully learn to fly my body better? Definitely.

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[skydance1954 0]

Allow me to provide a dinosaur's point of view:

My first 4-way meet was out of a small door beech in 1975 with belly warts. It was a freeflown exit in those days, and the pool consisted of a series of random points that the team built, backlooped, and built the next point. Kind of neat in a way, but very much the creation of the stylists who were in the majority of the time.

Then came a series of revolutions in the sport. Safe piggyback rigs, smaller main canopies, big suits, little suits, booties, ground to air video, creepers, air-to-air video, fully sponsored teams, and finally, the tunnels.

Every one of these steps improved the quality of 4-way as we have come to know and love it. And, most of these steps had various teams at the time complaining that the teams that got these improvements first had an unfair advantage over those who did not.

Point being: the field has NEVER been fully level.

And so what? I look around at the new kids coming up today, and I see them doing 4-way at a level that took me and my peers over a thousand jumps to do 20 years ago. And they only have 200-400 jumps TOTAL. This is without the benefit of a tunnel. With a tunnel, this can be improved very dramatically.

But, they also have all the other technologies available to them. No one questions the advantage of having air-to-air video today. But in 1980, we had a lot of people that were unhappy with the teams that did. Some teams even tried to have it banned due to "unfair competition". But I digress.....

Ultimately, I've seen 4-way grow and improve, with more and more people doing it all the time. The tunnel makes it even more appealing, because teams can use their available dollars more efficiently.

Will this hurt DZ's in the long run? I think not. Just the exact opposite. One still needs to practice the hill, and you can't do that in a tunnel. Tunnel work is great for the last 23 seconds of the jump, but you need to jump in order to get every exit, and every block worked out sub-terminal. So a balancing act is required.

And for me, I wish I could be 21 again, and start today, 'cause with all the technology available, I could be a hell of a lot better at 4-way a lot sooner, and that means having more fun, longer. So where's the downside of that? Other than the money, of course.

-Mike

Mike Ashley
D-18460
Canadian A-666

[Zoltan 0]

You are right but still forget that Wind Tunel is _NOT_ a skydiving tool but an ousider stuff which makes huge difference between teams after all The only comparable other development in the 4way history is the creeper.
WindTunel is a simulator a very good simulator which can replace 50 seconds from the skydive's 65 seconds.
As I said it is not unfair, of course it is not. But we should not be blind and we should recognise that 4 hour tunel training you can do technicaly during a week, but if you want to do the same skydivine training it takes more or less a season.
It is not bad.. it just redraws the map of the world's 4way competitions and we should admit this change.

z

[Swoopdiva 0]

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then I come back to home where the nearest windtunel is still like 1000 miles away... ...and anyway our team has plan.. a plan which fits to the reallity and makes happy everyone of us.. and this plan does not contain windtunel trainings :) instead we do some creeper trainings at winter and drinking beer and having sauna together :)

Of course, this is your choice. My team made a choice to fly over from Europe to Fla specifcally because there is a tunnel there :) That is the reality that we see. More tunnel = better skydives.

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But we should not be blind and we should recognise that 4 hour tunel training you can do technicaly during a week, but if you want to do the same skydivine training it takes more or less a season.

Yep...aint it great? :)

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It is not bad.. it just redraws the map of the world's 4way competitions and we should admit this change.

I don't think anyone is denying it - personally I think it's a cause for celebration. :)

[Zoltan 0]

"Yep...aint it great? :) "

you want to hear my personal opninion? :) Well... it is not popular I know :)

In my opinion it is not great... because you are not skydiving but drying your hair in a room...for a lot money.
I'm a skydiver... so I skydive :) and i wish you great competition results and success... But if i can chose to fly to Fla and train in windtunel or to jump the same money with my friends and still training.. then i chose skydive :) even if i know it is not the fastes and most effective way to be a champ :)

But at least I know that I am a 100% home grown formation skydiver.... and oh yes that 65 seconds is so small part of the training, maybe not even the most important.

z

[Swoopdiva 0]

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In my opinion it is not great... because you are not skydiving but drying your hair in a room...for a lot money.

Erm..it is actually a lot of fun. You are using the same muscles and skills as you do in freefall. You are still 'flying' on a column of air.

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I'm a skydiver... so I skydive :)

So do I...

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But at least I know that I am a 100% home grown formation skydiver....

Interesting way of looking at it. You are the organic, pesticide-free root vegetable of skydiving. I, on the other hand, am the genetically modified, Frankenstein tomato of the skies! Hee hee.

But I don't think there's any need for this inverted snobbery! Although I prefer to eat organic veggies where possible...

[Remster 30]

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Im trying to scrap up enough money to spend an hour in the tunnel. Am I going to be competing anytime soon? No. Will I have more fun skydiving bc I hopefully learn to fly my body better? Definitely.

And I would rather spend that money doing actual jumps.... but to each his own...

Remster

[Swoopdiva 0]

Skydiving and tunnel are different experiences, without doubt. But I do just love that tunnel. I think you get the most out of the experience if you have good coaches in there, just as in the sky. It really does enhance your freefall afterwards, too. The Airspeed Tunnelcamps are second to none and, my personal belief is that everyone should try one, because your skydiving will be transformed after just one camp.