Tunnel Camp / Mantis?

[Luna 0]

I am still a very new jumper, with only 25 jumps. I just signed up for an Airspeed Tunnel Camp next month and thought I'd get some advice. My husband has already been to one, so I know that they try to push you to use the mantis position, although he was not explicitly taught the mantis. For his skill level (he was still in AFF), he just ignored them and stayed in the boxman. Should I use the opportunity to try learning the mantis? Or should I just stick with what I know and concentrate only on my flying skills? My main goal is to gain more confidence in the air. Thanks for your input!

I'm walking a marathon to raise money for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. Click Here for more information!

[quade 4]

Go into the training with an open mind and if they try to teach you anything, try to learn it.

The Boxman is a very stable flying position which is why it's taught to beginners. If they try to teach you the Mantis, it means they believe you are ready for it. It's slightly less stable, but more maneuverable (quicker to turn).

At 25 jumps you're probably ready for it. If you learn it now, then you won't have to break the habit of flying in the Boxman position later.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[BikerBabe 0]

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know that they try to push you to use the mantis position

LOL! I've never had one of those guys (or gal) try to push me to do anything, except maybe to have another Go Fast and Vodka!

Seriously, though, they are all excellent coaches, and like Quade said, they will assess your ability level and teach you what you need to know. That's why they keep the Tunnel Camps small, so you can get individual attention with the same coach the entire time. That person will definitely get to know you and your flying ability well enough to know what to tell you to help you improve.

Have fun, take tons of Advil with you, and take in as much information as you can absorb...it will be the best time and money you've spent on skydiving so far.


Oh, and get some extra time at night. As much as you can.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[Ron 10]

If you are not willing to listen to the coaches you are paying?

Why go? Why pay that much money to ingnore them?

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[curtismelaniej 0]

I agree with Quade-- learn it now so you don't have to work on breaking bad habits later. You're one of the lucky ones-- getting in the tunnel with world-class coaches at 25 jumps!! The first time I was in the tunnel I had 300 jumps-- I STILL have some bad body position habits that I'm trying to get rid of. Go to the camp and learn all you can-- if you want to throw out what they say later on after you've learned more and gotten better, do it-- but right now is the perfect time to start learning good body position. And I agree with Ron too-- why pay them if you're not going to listen to them?! Ok, I'm rambling now. Good luck!!
Cheers,
Mel

__________________________________________________________
http://www.skydiveelsinore.com/teams/EXCEL/basic_camp.html

[rehmwa 2]

I am jealous and super excited for you. These camps are fantastic and flying Mantis the last couple years has raised my skill level to places I never knew I could fly.

They'll show you if you're ready. Great guys and you can trust their judgement calls. If I were you, I'd specifically ask for the Mantis training right away and make it your goal for the camp. In any case, trust your coaches adn be open to new things - they'll not let you down.

I you start Mantis now, you won't have to break the boxman habit. (You will trade 2 hours of muscle memory in Mantis, vs. half hour of Boxman). It's so worth it and you'll naturally fly that way from day one. We are working with newbies at my dropzone with about 25 - 50 jumps on Mantis right now and they are doing fine - more than fine, it's scary how good they are getting.

Do a couple of these camps and learn Mantis and you'll be flying circles around your husband as far as speed, precision, fall rate control and so an and so forth.

If you're interested in that kind of ability.

If the camp is in Oct Nov-Mar - buy a full set of thermals in addition to the advil, water bottle and gloves.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Oops, one thing. (edited based on Ron and Rosa's comments - i agree) Booties really show the power of Mantis.

If you don't have booties, could you borrow a good fitting suit with booties so you can compare?

Next month - still a good idea to have the thermals since the the early morning could be chilly

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 10]

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Oops, one thing. No point in doing Mantis unless you have booties.

I don't agree...I fly the mantis at all times with our without booties.

The mantis makes your booties much more responsive, but you can use it without.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

I learned to fly mantis without a bootie suit. (I have flown it in my freefly suit. ) Of course, now I have booties.

Can I PM anyone about more in depth info regarding tunnel camps?

[rehmwa 2]

That's cool. But mantis is about harnessing the power in your lower body. The booties are pretty important.

However, I have to defer to you and the gorgeous VSkyGirl (VIBES for MOM). Better to learn mantis regardless since it's early and time to start building the right habits. So I withdraw the second set of advice other than get booties if you can.

About a half hour to the DZ.

Have great weekends

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Luna 0]

Thanks to all for the input. I in fact do not currently have booties, and am glad to hear that it should be okay anyway. I have been told that I need to get them, but I'm still losing weight and would rather wait and get a new suit with booties if possible than to have booties added to my current suit.

I do plan to learn as much as possible while I'm there, of course. I will be sure to talk to them and let them know I want to learn mantis. I clarified with my husband and it was his after hours coach who was more trying to get him into mantis (when he had no idea about mantis) during the flights, not his regular coach, so I misunderstood that a bit. But that also tells me I need to communicate well with my after hours coach, too!

Anyway, he has gone over to the dark side now, so I kid him that his camp was a waste anyway! Now he's off to the new freefly camp!

Rosa - were you looking for info about the camps, or wanting to share info about them?

I'm walking a marathon to raise money for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. Click Here for more information!

[Zoltan 0]

Get booted and learn mantis :) the real good RW jumpers use booties and fly mantis :) at least you will look like them :) and looking good is the most important in formation skydive...

[Ron 10]

I can give you contact #'s...

But I have never been to an Airspeed camp, or NSL tunnel camp.

I am one of the local coaches that use the tunnel.

You can check out
www.tunnelcamp.com
www.skyleague.com

For more info on the programs they have.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

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Thanks to all for the input

{{No probs - If you can borrow a booted suit, it might be fun since a coach will be around, good luck - and tell us how it went}}

Anyway, he has gone over to the dark side now,

{{Well, even if he's gone over to CRW ;) he can still do some RW once in a while. - actually, the freefly camps are supposed to be pretty good. Hopefully, you both become all around jumpers and not just stuck in one discipline with bad attitudes.}}

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

• Quote

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

Luna ~ I was asking for any information that anyone could share regarding tunnel camp.
Ron ~ Thank you for those websites. I really will look into it more when I have some time. Then, I may PM you.

To those that have PMed me ~ Thank you. I have been a little preoccupied with my mother's health lately, so please bear with me. I will PM you back with intelleigent questions when I have a chance. I would love to talk some more.

[kallend 2,027]

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Get booted and learn mantis :) the real good RW jumpers use booties and fly mantis :) at least you will look like them :) and looking good is the most important in formation skydive...

Didn't see many people flying Mantis on the World Team video. Maybe they don't have many "real good" RW jumpers along.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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Didn't see many people flying Mantis on the World Team video. Maybe they don't have many "real good" RW jumpers along.

Nope, but Billvon did note in one of the updates that they were advised to exit in Mantis as it was better in a crowd. I wonder if any of the "old fossil contingient" there had to ask what Mantis was and get a quick coaching on it?

edit: BV also noted how much better his exit was as a result. Update #5 - "The next jump was another 222-way. I tried a new exit on this jump. After several shoulder injuries, BJ was now recommending exits in a mantis-type position. Your shoulders are stronger in this position, and more able to take hits on exit. It worked well. That position is a faster-fallrate position, and instead of sailing on exit I dropped relative to the base and this put me in a better position to make an approach without cutting off the white sector of the base. "

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Quote

Didn't see many people flying Mantis on the World Team video. Maybe they don't have many "real good" RW jumpers along.

Nope, but Billvon did note in one of the updates that they were advised to exit in Mantis as it was better in a crowd. I wonder if any of the "old fossil contingient" there had to ask what Mantis was and get a quick coaching on it?

edit: BV also noted how much better his exit was as a result. Update #5 - "The next jump was another 222-way. I tried a new exit on this jump. After several shoulder injuries, BJ was now recommending exits in a mantis-type position. Your shoulders are stronger in this position, and more able to take hits on exit. It worked well. That position is a faster-fallrate position, and instead of sailing on exit I dropped relative to the base and this put me in a better position to make an approach without cutting off the white sector of the base. "

And on #8:

"The base ended up either leaving a bit late or really sailing, and the first sector-2 people (including me) had to float up to the base a ways and then make our way around 180 degrees of the formation as people were diving on it. We made it, although Hod said that if it had been even 20 feet higher he would never have gotten back up."

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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And on #8:

"The base ended up either leaving a bit late or really sailing, and the first sector-2 people (including me) had to float up to the base a ways and then make our way around 180 degrees of the formation as people were diving on it. We made it, although Hod said that if it had been even 20 feet higher he would never have gotten back up."

and without the mantis position he may have nevr made it back

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

I actually think he is agreeing here as fall rate range is increased with mantis.

Else it's just a non-sequitor.

I do like non-sequitors. They keep people off balance.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Albatross 0]

I hate this debate. The "mantis" is a silly discussion. ALl the position is a more dynamic position for flying. It is not one fixed position but rather the head high legs engaged position that allows for more dynamic movement, more stability and better vision. ALL world class 4-way, 8-way and such fliers agree that it offers more range, better movements and better vision. WHY would you want to have less vision, slower movement and poor stability??

Chris

[rehmwa 2]

It's not a debate, we're just teasing back and forth with Kallend.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,027]

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I hate this debate. The "mantis" is a silly discussion. ALl the position is a more dynamic position for flying. It is not one fixed position but rather the head high legs engaged position that allows for more dynamic movement, more stability and better vision.?

But then again,

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=140822#140822

and

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=270562#270562

and
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=651934#651934

and

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=612377#612377

and

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=61021#61021

all contradict your assertion on stablity.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

Quote

But then again,

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=140822#140822

and

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=270562#270562

and
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=651934#651934

and

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=612377#612377

and

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=61021#61021

all contradict your assertion on stablity.

OOOOH, score one for the Dr.

The Mantis is not stable.....But it is better

Maybe next time you are down John I'll teach you it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Kdsosso 0]

The airspeed camp WILL give you more confidence in the air!!!! I did the camp after 10 jumps (Cause I had a bad landing and needed time to heal, before I could jump again) and it really gave me more control over my body. Besides...it's a really well run camp and you'll have an awesome experience and the people from airspeed are really genuine...if you want more info, feel free to PM me