annna 0 #1 October 31, 2003 A question - having just belatedly caught up with your US Nationals ... what is the difference between an O and a J ? Over here my understanding is we have busts (X) and NJs (not judgeable from the video provided). But what's this O ?? ta, anna Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #2 October 31, 2003 There is a discussion on a thread at www.4way.org about this www.4way.org edit: - Nevermind, it was on Omniskore during nationals here http://www.omniskore.com/comp/2003/nats/2003_nats.htm you'll have to dig through the Tidbits ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
annna 0 #3 October 31, 2003 errrr thanks but it was reading those tidbits that left me with the question !!!!! obviously i didn;t read them thoroughly enough ?? ho hum anna Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #4 October 31, 2003 A "J" is a point not scored due to there not being sufficient video evidence. This is usually attributed to the camera flyer, but, in fact, can be the team's fault. For instance, having a piece fly out of frame at a velocity too fast for the camera flyer to react and keep it in frame. An "O" is an omitted formation. A formation not built according the draw. The point is not scored and a penalty point is also assessed. For a more detailed and official look at the way things are scored, take a look at the Skydiver's Competition Manual Section 5-1.9. Take a look at the scoring of round five of THIS TEAM. What should have been points 2, 3 and 17 were not counted by the judges. What should have been point 2 was given a J and so simply does not add into the total. Points 3 and 17 and not added into the total either and an additional 2 points worth of penalties are subtracted from the score. So, what could have been a potential 23 point skydive is scored as an 18 point skydive. One of the controversies surrounding this particular skydive is whether or not what should have been point 3 was correctly scored as an O or whether it should have been a J. It makes a 1 point difference in the score and at that level of skydiving, with everything that is on the line for these folks, that's a pretty significant issue. You can download the jump HERE and judge it for yourself. BTW, this video was shot by what I consider to be the historically best 4-way camera flyer in the world and only goes to prove what a difficult and under appreciated thing that camera flyers do. Yes, it's damn difficult to do it perfectly every time.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
annna 0 #5 October 31, 2003 Aha ! You are a star. Thank you! Basically your O is what i call a bust .... i.e. lose 2 points. And the J is an NJ much like over here too. In fact, knowing my scattiness, it could well be written as an O here in the UK too and i just never noticed ,,,,,,,,, ? ahem. anyway - thanks lots. Airspeed must've been reallllllly gutted with that round huh .... still, way to go Majik !!! glitch won't let me see the jump ;-( Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RozeAY 0 #6 October 31, 2003 Quote Basically your O is what i call a bust .... i.e. lose 2 points. And the J is an NJ much like over here too. They are also called busts and NJs here too. The O and the J is how they are written on the score sheets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #7 October 31, 2003 If I can find it later, Kurt on skyleague.com gave a couple of articles that went into detail on several aspects of how certain scenarios were judged. It was very illuminating for someone like me only a few years into 4-way. If I can find it, I'll send a link. (Quade - A 4-way team consists of 5 people, all my teams have always felt that way and our cameraman is on equal basis for jumps, debriefs, input, etc. I've seen otherwise and think that stinks.) As such, I think O's and J's should be penalized the same...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RozeAY 0 #8 October 31, 2003 QuoteAs such, I think O's and J's should be penalized the same...... When the J is used in scoring, it basically means that from what the judges see, they think you did what you were supposed to but because of video or some other reason they technically cannot see what they need to. Therefore giving the J doesn't add a penalty, it simply doesn't give you credit for what the judges cannot see. It comes down to interpretation by the judges. There can be a fine line between giving a J and giving an O in certain circumstances. Which I believe is part of what the tidbits is about on Omniskore in relation to what happened with Airspeed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #9 October 31, 2003 QuoteAs such, I think O's and J's should be penalized the same...... It's a difficult issue since sometimes it's -really- a judgement call as to whether it's a scored point a J or an O. IF we went to slo-mo frame-by-frame judging then I could see it being a bit more cut and dried, but as it stands now, it's -very- subjective. For instance, there are a number of people that think Majik should have gotten a J in round 5 as well. I really think that if we want to be taken seriously and do Olympic quality skydiving, then we should get serious about the judging. The sport needs some tweeks to the rules.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #10 October 31, 2003 QuoteQuoteAs such, I think O's and J's should be penalized the same...... When the J is used in scoring, it basically means that from what the judges see, they think you did what you were supposed to but because of video or some other reason they technically cannot see what they need to. Therefore giving the J doesn't add a penalty, it simply doesn't give you credit for what the judges cannot see. It comes down to interpretation by the judges. There can be a fine line between giving a J and giving an O in certain circumstances. Which I believe is part of what the tidbits is about on Omniskore in relation to what happened with Airspeed. Yeah, I understand how it works. I just don't think that J and O should result in different effects on your score. Is the cameraman on your team or not? I like the tidbits conclusion. You don't get the point, no additional penalties. If you purposely skip a point or transition, no points are scored until you get to that point the next time around. Either that, or say the cameraman is just there and let the judges 'interpret' is you busted or not. Personally, the more interpretation you take out, the happier people will be. That means one of three things: 1 - The J results in no points lost or deducted (doesn't make sense, can't see it = can't score it) 2 - The J results in loss of point + deduction 3 - O results in loss of point only. I like 3, but then whats to stop a team taking the draw E-2-16 and just diving E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E ??? So 2 is the only fair solution. (I like the slo-mo allowance also. Review it once at slow speed likely has much more accuracy than 2 or 3 runs at speed and won't take any longer.) For my team, we are so slow, all this doesn't matter. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #11 October 31, 2003 Quote If you purposely skip a point or transition, no points are scored until you get to that point the next time around. I like 3, but then whats to stop a team taking the draw E-2-16 and just diving E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E ??? whoops, already answered my own question (above example is only 1 point because the others didn't count as we never ever go to the top of 2) - so 3 is ok and a lot easier to deal with. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #12 October 31, 2003 on www.skyleague.com As promised. On the 4-way forums, there is also a thread on busted inters which is informative. I don't recall info on omitted formations. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
