Inside center needs exit help

[Jessica 0]

I'm the inside center on a new four-way team. I have the fewest jumps, around 200, and the most anyone has is 500. None of us have done any four-way before. We train about two weekends a month.

I need some help on my exits. I give the count, but I'm having a hell of a time leaving with my team. Every time we watch the video, someone on the dropzone invariably comes up and says, "your inside center is leaving late."

I KNOW I AM. BUT I CAN'T SEEM TO HELP IT.

Of course my leaving late means my feet catch the prop blast, and it's only if we're lucky that I don't flip over the top.

We have a coach, and a couple of things she's told me have improved our exits quite a bit. For one, I'm not waiting until "go" to leave. My body's already almost moving on "set." For another, I lock eyes on the outside center during exit to make sure I'm leaving with him.

Even so, 25 jumps into our training and I'm still regularly fubaring the exits.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Skydiving is for cool people only

[jverley 1]

A couple of thoughts:

1. Make sure your count and, more importantly, your movement is very rhythmic and crisp. My count is
[INDENT]1. Shake (gets everyone ready -- If you see or feel the shake, the exit will be in 3 beats)
2. Hut (Ready! -- If you hear the ready we will be leaving in two beats)
3. Down (If you see me going down we are leaving)
4. ______(no words, just go! If they are in rhythm with you, you will all leave together)
[/INDENT]

2. Since you have the count, they need to follow you, not the other way around. When you do the exit, imagine the rest of the team are not there and don't follow them. Just give the count and put yourself outside the plane where you need to be. After you get some success, you will start to realize when to speed up or slow down.

Good luck and have fun!

John
Arizona Hiking Trails

[smiles 0]

Hey,

I am confused- if you are inside center- why are you giving the count???
I cannot imagine giving the count from the inside- outside gives count. Inside gets ready in door- with their body as close to outside as possible- takes chest grip and locks eye contact ---when ready gives "nod" to outside or "hut"..... Outside gives count- ready- set - and on the "g" in "go" inside leaves rolling out the door- anticipating no arm extension.

The launch is practised in dirt dive and also from the aircraft before take off. Everyone in the team gets comfortable with count outside gives. Takes team work and everyone reads outside centers body language with the count.........

with practise all goes well

SMiles

[Albatross 0]

While some teams do have the Outside give the count it is rare. The comments above are good thoughts.
1. have a slow predictable rhythm to all ow your OC to get a good launch.
2. Remember that the OC has a hard job tryingt o get up and away from the plane and that IC belongs just below the OC in most formations.
3. Get your hips Below the OC and arch. The IC launch is most often dropping through the hole that the Tail/Rear float vacates. It is a hard exit.
4. Make sure that you don't "run over" the OC.

Take all this with a grain of salt as we can only make general statements and have not seen the video!

Chris

[daveb 1]

Quote

I'm the inside center on a new four-way team....

I need some help on my exits. I give the count, but I'm having a hell of a time leaving with my team. Every time we watch the video, someone on the dropzone invariably comes up and says, "your inside center is leaving late."
...
Even so, 25 jumps into our training and I'm still regularly fubaring the exits.

Does anyone have any ideas?

It's hard to diagnose the problem without video, but from your description, I'll offer a few notes that should help.

First, be smooth and consistent on your count. It doesn't matter what type of count you do, as long as it communicates to the others exactly when you are planning to go. This is easiest if you provide a steady cadence to your count, everybody can see or feel this cadence, and knows that on beat X we all leave. Get eye contact from each slot before starting the count, always in the same order (e.g. point, outside, tail), so everyone knows to expect the count, be it shake-down-go, ready-set-go, forward-back-exit.

Since you are giving the count, it is difficult to be late. One possibility is you are communicating 'go', but not moving out until after the go is given. Remember that 'go' means leave NOW for everyone, including yourself; it is an action word, start your exit while you are giving the 'go'.

A very good drill to get the timing down is to use the mockup and attempt to get everyone's feet on the ground at the same moment. You want to hear a single, combined footfall, not a pitter-patter of footsteps. Practice the count and exit until your team can consistently get feet on the ground simultaneously. You can also practice this by doing 'hops': no mockup, everyone takes exit grips, you give the count, and on 'go' everyone hops up and lands simultaneously. Again, you want a single sound.

You may also be allowing yourself to be pulled off the aircraft. This is most common when the IC leads with upper body only, leaving feet on the floor. A good tip here is to exit the aircraft by leading with your hips, and collapsing through the floor. You need to get your center point moving on exit, and your body into the wind as quickly as possible; leading with your hips is an easy method to achieve this.

Hope this helps you out.

[harryskydives 0]

Hey Jess, I just switched from OC to IC. Work the mock up with video and have an expirenced 4way person watch your debreif. In the air you must go down on exit, that is not practical with the mock up. You might be jumping up and not down and out. Make sure your count is aggressive enough that everyone know when to go. Of course it takes 4 to make a nice exit. If the point is leaving early...
Come to Eloy for easter and get some others insite.

Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time...

[Ron 10]

Quote

While some teams do have the Outside give the count it is rare

We were doing it this weekend. Doug Park was the OC. It works very well for a team that does not have the time to train an exit count. I have even seen Majik do the same thing on "B" exits.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjasantos 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/safety/articles/Exits.shtml

For the whole team:

The key to all good exits is Timing, Presentation and Placement! As you stand in the door, lined up and ready to exit, realize this: you are a funnel waiting to happen. In the line up, your team is like a ball of bodies. You may have the correct grips of a formation, but a formation you are not. From the door, you must physically PUT THE FORMATION ON THE AIR. You cannot just jump out and see where it goes. You must decide exactly where you want the formation to be on “the hill” and physically put it in that place.

Decide exactly where you want the formation to be on “the hill”;

Stand balanced and comfortable in the door during the line up;

Have a consistent and easily communicated count to establish ideal timing;

Know what you personally have to do to ensure that you are presented to the wind as you leave the door. Don’t jump out and then present. You must be presented when you first hit the air;

Establish your cross-reference while in the line up. Front and rear should be watching each other as they come off the plane. This is the only way to know if you have immediately put the formation in the proper place on “the hill” and the only way to fix it if you have not.

... Though some teams have the count coming from inside, the center float is the most central person. ...

... For everyone, as you present to the relative wind placing yourself on “the hill”, use your grips to help present the entire formation. If you have a grip, you must be aware of exactly what the person whose grip you have needs from you. Otherwise, you will restrict them from doing their job on the launch. Expand from the center point and take personal responsibility for putting the entire formation on the air. ...

Just for the IC:

The inside diver (most commonly the rear center) must stay very close to the plane during the exit. The most common error is for them to launch out too hard and too far. In doing so, they run over the center float and collapse onto them. It is very important for them to see the motion of the exit and leave exactly with the center while only occupying the space right outside the door.

More on Timing, Presentation and Placement here:

http://www.dropzone.com/safety/articles/BasicExitTechniques.shtml

Another good article about Understanding your Slot here:

http://www.dropzone.com/safety/articles/UnderstandingYourSlot.shtml

Blue Skies!

-----------------------------
Mario Santos
Portugal

[Ron 10]

Give the count to OC...See if it is a timing issue or if it is an exit technique issue.

The exit setup in the door is hard to brief from video...You can only judge the result of that setup in how the group presents after the exit.

If you don't want to give the count to the OC....just remember that you have to be GOING on Go...Don't say ready, set, go!, then go. (Think about the movie Lethal Weapon, the bathroom scene). Think ready set and then GO!

I would give the count to OC personally. People are used to it, and everyone can see it, including the vidiot.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

Jessica - I like having the IC with the count. They have the hardest job as far as timing, so I prefer to give the timing responsibility (count) with the IC.

However, sometimes it can be the other guy's (OC and Point) fault. If OC and Point are 'anticipating' the count instead of leaving with the IC, they can go a tad early - this also is worsened when the OC and Point don't present relative to the formation but 'just leave on go'. ((a good way to test this, when you feel late, does the point person sometimes nose underneath the front of the formation or on video just look flat instead of above on the hill? - If so, take this seriously, if not, I might just be raving here))

As OC, I don't leave on go. I read the count and leave based on where I want to be relative to the IC's hips (mainly). It's done wonders for us. Ditto for our point man and even tail can watch IC's hips and go with him (just lower). Previously, our exits were wonky with the IC too high and a very uncomfortable, almost floppy, hill - sound familiar? Now we can key almost instantly and there is little tension.

As such, for most exits, another thing you can try is for the OC to not release until your hips are crossing the door's threshold. In this case, take a very rhythmic count and be aggressive in timing, but gentle in energy - just get your hips out the door already presented. When I jumped IC, I focused on being moving on set and just clearing my legs (read 'hips') into my presentation. It's pretty good for me and works even when I substitute as IC for local unfamiliar teams.

lots of things to try -

with the load of responses here I'm thinking that the RW forum is hungry for a new season and more questions I'll have a bunch too and soon.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[BikerBabe 0]

Whenever I exit from that position...like when we take out a 12, for example, I like to think of hockey.

Yes, hockey. Hip check!! Seriously, I think of hip-checking the OC/tail out the door. This way my hips leave first instead of my head, and I'm presented to the relative wind. Usually it helps my timing, as well.

I also like having the IC give the count, especially when I (as a tail) am head jamming and can't see the OC as well. Every team I've jumped with has done it this way, with the IC giving a shake, then a hut, down, out style of count. The down on "set" is really important to me, since it allows me to spring-load if necessary, and unlock my head if in a head jam.

You'll find something that works for you and your team, it just takes practice.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[Jessica 0]

Thanks guys! I feel better about this now.

Quote

Previously, our exits were wonky with the IC too high and a very uncomfortable, almost floppy, hill - sound familiar?

Yes! *sob*

Quote

Seriously, I think of hip-checking the OC/tail out the door.

This is a great idea. I'll definitely apply it. There's lots of good advice in this thread! Thanks everyone. I'll be sure to have my teammates read the posts that say the funnels could be their fault.

Just kidding. Maybe.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[Mad47 0]

First of all, thank you all for the input. It is really amazing that we get so much help from 4-way community
I believe Jess is trying to criticize herself little bit too much since most of our initial problems with exits were caused by the group effort: 1) not trusting IC and not being able to read the count and leave on time 2) not presenting properly 3) not putting enough effort to save the exit or stop the spin (spinning E's and B's is a good example) and 4) stupid Tail leaving a bit late. The thing is that during last camp (and only after 30 jumps together) our exits have improved 100% mainly because Jess did a great job making her count rock solid, easy to read and very consistent. As a result, we were sailing some nice B's, N's, H's and O's having only few funnels. She still needs to work on leaving the plane with her hips first instead or her upper body but I believe this is a secondary problem. Again, we are very new team (less than 1600 jumps all together) so we cannot expect to become great instantly. The learning curve is steep which makes our training fun.

Sputnik

[Mad47 0]

P.S.:

Look at her signature – she surely got a right 4-way attitude

[Jessica 0]

It also helps that I've got great teammates, including an awesome captain.

Anton, I'm sorry I called you a nazi because you made me get up at 7 a.m. to train on Sunday.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[Mad47 0]

Quote

It also helps that I've got great teammates, including an awesome captain.

Anton, I'm sorry I called you a nazi because you made me get up at 7 a.m. to train on Sunday.

It's ok, baby ... I was actually thinking about starting the next camp at 6 so we can stretch well and creep a few dives before the first load

[Jessica 0]

Quote

I was actually thinking about starting the next camp at 6

Then at 6:01 we're having a pass-the-rock so we can talk about what a ball-buster our captain is.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[Mad47 0]

Sure ... if it is a very soft and small rock

[quade 4]

First let me preface this by saying "I'm just a camera flyer. WTF do I know?"

However, from my view on the camera step I've had a LOT of practice watching teams do the stupidest things for an exit count and then wonder why nobody is getting into the rhythm of it.

Meanwhile, I'm back there trying to read minds. Actually, I usually am watching the tail flyer's butt, shoulders & head. The team has all the advantages, visual, tactic, kinetic and even aural if the IC is loud enough. The camera flyer is frequently just seeing the faintest of visual cues.

Here's something I've noticed. It doesn't matter one whit if the exit count is subtle or blatant if it's not in rhythm. (reeaadddddyyyyyyy, set, g....)

Jessica, I don't know if you've ever taken any music or dance classes, but if you did maybe this will make sense.


5 Shake
& Shake
6 Shake

7 Hut (ready) (freeze)

8 Down (set) (prep)

1 OUT! (go) (step out)

The count also needs to be the same rhythm and speed -every- time you do it. Creeping, mock-up and actual exit.

Of course, this is just -my- preference. Again, WTF do I know.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Ron 10]

Quote

Of course, this is just -my- preference. Again, WTF do I know

Well if you don't see it, it didn't happen.

My old team used to ask the camera guy what exits HE wanted to practice.

Edit to add: as a tail I never watched the exit...I watched for movement, then I blasted down as hard as I could. Not for eveyone, but it worked for me.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Possum 0]

The only thing I have to add is consider the weight distribution on your feet. I think there is a tendency to weight the foot (usually your left) that is next to the door. This is intuitive, but also detrimental to exiting with your hips first. If you balance more of your weight on your far leg (usually the right) you will have allot more power available for blasting your hips out. At least thats the advice my IC gives me on those exceedingly rare situations where I exit from inside the aircraft.

[skyminxx 0]

Hi Jess:
Im also IC and I love it. When we started last year I only had 250 jumps and only really got the hang of it at the end of last season.

Our OC gives the count and we have a peculiar count that we borrowed from my b'/f s team.

It is (Make eye contact all round)Shake: breath: Out: in: out .
That might sound like a lot to do, but we are all completely in sync now. The shake lets everyone know we are ready, the breathe is to become poised and then the normal (out: in:out) bit follows.
Our camera flyer can see all of us move in unison through every step of the count.

Its quite funny to see inside and outside moving as one unit, with our hips moving at the same time and even funnier to see us dirt diving it on the ground. Four girls shaking their hips in time usually gets a grin from the guys:)

We practive the whole random dive pool exits from the mock up when we have bad weather (or inside if its raining) focusing on timing (everyone's feet hitting the deck at the same time) and presentation(which we discuss before each exit) as we exit the mock up.

It killed my hips and quads doing such repetitive squatting and crouching but it really paid off.
Now I feel that I can fly the exit more effectively and am much more aware of things that I can fix as IC on exit. I feel that getting your hips down and out before your upper body is a key part of IC's exit.

This year our OC is last years tail girl. She is doing really well with the count beacuse we practiced moving in sync so much last year. It's turning the right way on blocks that is foxing her

Im glad to hear other folks pass the rock, it seems like a funny thing to do, but that method has helped us ith our debriefs

Good luck Jess. Im sure that once you get the hang of it, You will love it.

You are led through your lifetime by the inner learning creature, the playful spiritual being that is your real self.-Richard Bach

[Red_Skydiver 0]

Jessica, you mention you are giving the count and you are leaving late. This doesn't sound right to me, surely what you mean is the others are leaving early! I'm very inexperienced so take what I say with a pinch of salt but it sounds like you need to work on your timing and movements during the count. If things are not working out then have OC give the count instead.

[RMURRAY 1]

there is an article in Skydiving this month about the IC exit from a twin otter.

rm

[Jessica 0]

UPDATE: I nailed the timing on seven out of eight exits this weekend. In fact, I was so gung-ho that I accidentally threw myself through the mockup onto my ass during an exit jam.

Skydiving is for cool people only