360's...no eye-contact...

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

Initially, I have been taught to keep my eye-contact while turning 360's, and I trusted that. A couple of days ago, I had a tunnel session in which I was coached by a very trusted instructor who told me that I am ready to begin to do my 360s without keeping my eye contact with him. I was told to do the 360 while keeping my head straight ahead of me.

As I understand it, I am not to not look/keep eye-contact because it will distort my body alignment slightly while turning. Thus, slowing me down and making my 360 sloppy/erratic. It is said that little things, like this change in my head position while turning quickly, are a natural progression in skills. I was told that way down the line, there may be another level at which I will be able to look a little, again, while turning.

Anyway, I was told to trust myself, and I will try my best to integrate this new change into my skydiving skills. I'd like to hear others' experiences when integrating this kind of little change into my skills box.

Can someone further explain this no eye-contact 360 and/or give me further thoughts about how to integrate. Also, what is the best way to practice this change besides on creepers, like I was told. Solos? The tunnel? Actual 4-ways? All of the above?

Btw, are there any sources online which have more of this type of info.
that may be helpful to read? Thank you to everyone in advance!

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[mjasantos 0]

Hi Vanilla,

Training 90's, 180's, 270's, 360's, 540's or any other type ot turns with your eyes closed, is suited best to give yourself the confidence you need on making a correct turn (both in place and with the right angle).

The turn speed will be variable from person to person... each one should go just the fastest he/she can while maintaing total control of it, regarding both the "in place" thing and the angle of the turn.

This "eyes closed" drill is also designed to help your feeling of your own center point, the one which is the center of your turns. This is because, many times, when you start doing turns in a Formation Skydiving team, there is a tendence to turn around your chest rather than your belly, because of excess of using of your head while visualizing your references.

When you are able to do good turns with your eyes closed, your confidence will be higher and it will be easier to perform with your eyes open, which is the normal while freefalling.

This will help you as well on your super-positioned moves, those ones requiring both (simultaneously) rotational and transactional movement.

Confidence is the key for good turns. By turning with your eyes closed, you'll have to feel your "internal compass" and trust your body without using your eyes. To replace your vision while doing it, you'll have to use a lot of visualizing and trust yourself.

At the begining it will seems odd or even strange... but when you get it, and go with your eyes open, you'll see the difference: much easier than before.

You can also train those eye closed turns on creepers, both alone or with your team. Do you remember one of the phases while creeping, the one where you go from transition to transition with your eyes closed? It suits the same purpose: visualize, trust yourself, both your body and your "internal compass".

Just another remark: by turning with your eyes opened and referencing someone to help you on your turns, could be erratic as well. Just imagine that those people you're referencing are not turning in place: you'll be adjusting your turn to their moves out of place. Actually you'll be doing a superpositioned move, rather than a turn in place. On a team, the goal is that everyone turns in place, when required, as for example in blocks 7, 9, 14 and 15. This way the proximity remains the same. If someone doesn't turn in place, it will create an "internal drag" ("skew" effect) in the formation, as some of the teammates could be adjusting their turns to finish close and some don't. That's why you skydive with your eyes open.

But if every team members can turn in place with eyes closed, they'll be able to do it as well with their eyes open and finish those turns close to each other, saving time and with a clean flight.

Hope this helps a bit.

Blue Skies!

-----------------------------
Mario Santos
Portugal

[NeedToJump 0]

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As I understand it, I am not to not look/keep eye-contact because it will distort my body alignment slightly while turning. Thus, slowing me down and making my 360 sloppy/erratic

One of the problems with keeping very strong eye contact is that the head switch can throw off your turn.

Say that you can keep eye contact until 135 degrees and then pick it back up again at 225 degrees (45 degrees before and after the 180 point.) If you are doing a really fast turn you are going to have to do the head switch very quickly. I believe the average human head weight 9 - 11 lbs. Moving that much mass that quickly is going to add its own momentum into the turn and change the rotation of the turn.

Watch your own tunnel videos in slow motion when it looks like you are not doing a center turn (360 or more.) It is very common to see the first 180 or so on the center point and then the rest of the turn around the chest as the head switch occurs.

For learning purposes it is much better to be able to keep your head straight in front of you (lose all eye contact once you start the turn) with either your eyes open or closed and be able to turn in place. You have to be able to trust yourself to do a turn in place. Once these are happening then you can add the eye contact back in with a gentle head switch.

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Also, what is the best way to practice this change besides on creepers, like I was told. Solos? The tunnel? Actual 4-ways? All of the above?

Tunnel is the best way to practice it.

Solos can help you get used to the feel of not making a head switch but you have no reference as to whether you are turning on center or not. During 4-way you want to keep eye contact so you can stay close to the group. Also the formation could be moving so again you would not have proper references.

Hope this helps

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[rehmwa 2]

Yeah, eyes closed is how my IC finally got his turns on center. he says he'll still do it a bit even now when he's facing out. His turns are great.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

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Hope this helps

Yes, all of the responses have been helping me greatly.

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[Ron 10]

When people try hard to keep eye contact they many times bend their spine...This makes it so that they have to include and counter the effects of the bend in the spine to help them turn....The fewer imputs you need to control the easier it is to learn the correct movements.

Tunnel is a great way to learn this. Solos are good as well.

You would not do it during a "live" skydive...It is for training.

Ari's comment about the head weight...believe it or not, its also true. Many times when a person does a strong head switch you can see the center point of the turn move.

Also, many times when you do a head switch you try to rush the turn back in...And that makes your head the piviot point yet again moving the center of the turn.

So there are three reasons...

I think its more 1 and 3....

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[NeedToJump 0]

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Ari's comment about the head weight...believe it or not, its also true

LOL, thanks for the approval Ron

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[Ron 10]

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Ari's comment about the head weight...believe it or not, its also true

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LOL, thanks for the approval Ron

Well, hell, the first time I was told that I thought it was crazy talk. I later found it to be true...But it SOUNDS crazy.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[NeedToJump 0]

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But it SOUNDS crazy.

It definitely does sound crazy, but its physics. I can't properly explain it in physics terms , but it makes sense in my mind...

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[rehmwa 2]

We're working that exact issue right now with our tail. She does the head switch and suddenly it's like her head is fixed in space and her whole body swings around it.

I don't think (in this case) it's momentum, just the turn changes after the head switch.

We couldn't check two days ago (no video) until I just went up and sat base and observed her and my IC do buds. Then it was real clear what was happening. (I'm really wishing she went to tunnel last week, this will be more expensive in the long run)

So the turn starts real nice, then the last third or so the whole body swings away. It makes block 7/etc frustrating. We're advising a still spine, no head switch, and maybe even closing the eyes if the basics don't hit it. Hopefully next weekend we can play with it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NeedToJump 0]

The air isn't the best place to try to work that out, especially on a 7 since you want to cog... I'd say go up and play with some 2-way drills and have her do really slow eyes closed turns focusing on keeping her body straight and turning on her center point. She should open her eyes after turning 360 and assess where she is.

I think having her build confidence in not needing the eye contact is key, that and more tunnel time

When's your next tunnel trip?

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[skyminxx 0]

Hey Rehm:
Get her to come to our camp in May
we have an empty tail slot....you know its a great deal
I am going to be focused on my 360's during this camp. I have a bad habit of turning out in the second half of the turn and having to slide back in. It works (kinda) but it isnt pretty.

woooohoooo..tunnel time in less than a month!
If anyone is interested in some awesomely priced tunnel time Memorial day weekend (we have Pete Allum and Thomas Hughes coaching) pm me. We have a couple of hours left. The time is booked on Saturday May 29th and Monday 31st finishing at 4pm so that folks can catch flights.

You are led through your lifetime by the inner learning creature, the playful spiritual being that is your real self.-Richard Bach

[rehmwa 2]

Her cog timing is very good. It's the center point turns. So me observing her doing 7s with our IC seems to be a great tool. I'm certain it's just a confidence thing too, though. Maybe next tunnel we'll get her in there. That's all we need. I'll still be taking her up on 2-ways though. That's the trick.

MINXX - you can't steal my tail . No matter how cute she is and how good she'd fit in with the Foxes. (I'll bring it up to her but I'm pretty sure she'll decline due to the new job, low $$ etc.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skyminxx 0]

MINXX - you can't steal my tail . No matter how cute she is and how good she'd fit in with the Foxes. (I'll bring it up to her but I'm pretty sure she'll decline due to the new job, low $$ etc.)

[rehmwa 2]

I sent an e-mail to her. She'll be tempted. Don't hold your breath though.

FWIW - If she went, I'd recommend she do a mini-basic camp with coaches first before flying with others and sharing time.

Spinning is fun

Just got a note from my old point - man
"There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary numbers and those who don't." We really aren't nerds to that extent, but some things are just funny anyway.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skyminxx 0]

FWIW - If she went, I'd recommend she do a mini-basic camp with coaches first before flying with others and sharing time.

Our camp is structured that we will all be doing solos then peices then fourway.. If she bought a half hour, it would be with the other group in our camp as an hour-split with another solo chica.

Dont worry, I know its a wayyyyy long shot that Sarah can make it..but I thought I'd put it out there.

Spinning is fun
yeah, but spinning quickly in place is betta! (and much harder to do

You are led through your lifetime by the inner learning creature, the playful spiritual being that is your real self.-Richard Bach

[kallend 2,106]

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Just got a note from my old point - man
"There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary numbers and those who don't."

Hmm, and I thought there were 11 types, those that can count in binary and those that can't.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NeedToJump 0]

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Just got a note from my old point - man
"There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary numbers and those who don't."

I guess you didn't see that it's in my sig line then, huh?

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[rehmwa 2]

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Just got a note from my old point - man
"There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary numbers and those who don't."

I guess you didn't see that it's in my sig line then, huh?

sure didn't, that's an odd coincidence

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants