ok i need to know how i can quickly cover vertical distance

[airborne82nd 0]

Ok i did an 8 way the other day i think a 4 point 8 way.

i know i know low speed. we exited out a twin bonanza.

we exit a 4 way base out and then the 4 divers dive down to us. i am part of the base standing in the door.

now i am diving down to a 4 way or 6 way or 8 way. problem i am having is i cant get down fast enough it takes me to long to close the vertical ddistance. i can acheive a 45 deggree down and sometimes a 60 degree.

so i leave the plane and dive at a 45 degree ankle aiming for a point next to the group. so i fly down and turn and turn and turn then i am there.

how can i go almost straight down and say aim 50 ft off the formation to the side dive down fast then go delta and do a 45 degree angle to the formation then enter. it takes me 20 seconds to 40 seconds if i exit last.

so i need to be able to go almost 90 down to a 70 degree down then i can do my 45 degree angle .

of course i never go over the formation. but i need to get down fast and safe as possible.

i get in the formation and everyone is like good flying chris in formation but try to get down faster.

this makes me feel like i failed the group.

so am i talking about like a freeefly head down or a no lift dive or what???

one fella told me to put my hands behind my back and that helped a bit.

any of you rw masters would give me a bit of advice i would appreiciate it.

[quade 4]

It comes with experience.

A LOT of the distance you're trying to cover wouldn't be there if you simply exited quicker.

I'm about to point you to something that's pretty old. Some of the people you're jumping with today might not even know it exists and I'll admit that -some- of this stuff is so old that newer techniques have replaced some of what it talks about, but if you -really- want to learn about stuff . . . you might wanna start HERE.

Read the whole thing, then we'll discuss.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mjosparky 4]

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It comes with experience.

A LOT of the distance you're trying to cover wouldn't be there if you simply exited quicker.

I'm about to point you to something that's pretty old. Some of the people you're jumping with today might not even know it exists and I'll admit that -some- of this stuff is so old that newer techniques have replaced some of what it talks about, but if you -really- want to learn about stuff . . . you might wanna start HERE.

Read the whole thing, then we'll discuss.

There's not much in Pat's books that has changed. The type of aircraft and types of dives have changed. But what Al said still holds true today, if you touch the door with your hands, hand in his case, it will slow you down.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Fast 0]

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It comes with experience.

A LOT of the distance you're trying to cover wouldn't be there if you simply exited quicker.

I'm about to point you to something that's pretty old. Some of the people you're jumping with today might not even know it exists and I'll admit that -some- of this stuff is so old that newer techniques have replaced some of what it talks about, but if you -really- want to learn about stuff . . . you might wanna start HERE.

Read the whole thing, then we'll discuss.

I like the link quade. I have spent a fair amount of time this morning reading some of the things on that site. I really like the perspective that the past gives. As a young jumper it makes you think a lot more about how things were, how things are, what has changed, and what hasn't.

Its a cool read.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[steve1 5]

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i cant get down fast enough it takes me to long to close the vertical ddistance. i can acheive a 45 deggree down and sometimes a 60 degree.

so i leave the plane and dive at a 45 degree ankle aiming for a point next to the group. so i fly down and turn and turn and turn then i am there.
it takes me 20 seconds to 40 seconds if i exit last.
eply]

I've been at this quite a while, and I still have problems with a long steep swoop. I may not have many answers, but I have a game plan. I've been going out on some tracking dives and practicing diving steeper down to the rabbit safely. Or just going out by yourself and do nothing but practice diving steeply. I know jumpers who have well over a thousand jumps who can't track safely down to a formation quickly.

I've asked this same question more than once on the forums, and I appreciate everyone's input. But, I still can't swoop down steeply very well. I plan to keep on practicing. I've read most of Pat Work's stuff and even jumped with him a few times....Steve1

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[billvon 3,029]

>how can i go almost straight down and say aim 50 ft off the formation
>to the side dive down fast then go delta and do a 45 degree angle to the
>formation then enter.

You've answered your own question there. Go straight down.

Right after exit, get as BIG as possible. You want to catch as much air as possible; that will blow you backwards towards the base. (Actually, it will not throw you as far forwards, but same thing.) Your goal is a max track (i.e. slow fall) directly down.

Then transition to a head-down and hold that for as long as needed. Keep your eye on the formation from the very top of your helmet.

Come out of the dive about 300 feet out at a 30 degree angle or so. Put on the brakes until you are stopped then continue your approach. If you can't stop in time, abort by turning to the side and flying past the formation. Do NOT use the formation to stop or fly over/under it.

>so am i talking about like a freeefly head down or a no lift dive or what???

Call it whatever you like. It's basically a freefly head down with less drag out. Some call that no-lift.

[jheadley 0]

What is a good way to transition to a head-down/no lift? I don't do any freeflying. I haven't done much head down diving but the few times I've done it, I basically start in a steep delta, building up some speed, then angle my head down and bend foward slightly at the waist, that seems to get me head down. I can't hold it for very long though, before I "cork" back into a delta track.

[elightle 8]

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What is a good way to transition to a head-down/no lift? I don't do any freeflying. I haven't done much head down diving but the few times I've done it, I basically start in a steep delta, building up some speed, then angle my head down and bend foward slightly at the waist, that seems to get me head down. I can't hold it for very long though, before I "cork" back into a delta track.

What billvon said is correct but please be careful! Never do a head-down or no-lift dive without being able to see where you're going. It's better to take 5 seconds longer to get to your slot than to dive into somebody's back at 180 mph. I know of a guy who did just that back in the late '70's. Killed himself instantly. Just be careful.

As for technique, you have to find your own "sweet spot" (to quote Kate Cooper). But do it on your own, don't practice on a big-way! And if you're put on a big-way, ask to be moved further up in the lineup where you know you can get to your slot safely and quickly.

Blues!
-- Ed

[rehmwa 2]

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i am part of the base standing in the door.....now i am diving down

that makes less sense, are you sure you aren't in the trail plane/diving and not in the lead/base? I'll assume you're diving

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one fella told me to put my hands behind my back and that helped a bit.

that'll spread your shoulders out, why not bring your arms and elbows "in" (fist under chin palms facing collar bones, elbows together) if you want to stay on your belly. Get narrow and arch longitudinally down your body (arms tucked, hips down/chin up, knees together, and bend the knees to get the booties behind your thighs) don't arch wider (elbow back, stomach down).

...If you have to stay on your belly. Else, BV's note about diving down is right on target. Lots of neat tricks to get steep and still see the target. I like to dive down actually face the formation with the front of my body (kind of a track on my back, but steep) - you just flare out and roll back over - makes it easier to see in front of you on the way.

I do find when doing a single otter load that it's only REALLY steep when the base chokes on the exit, else the angle is usually very nice. On trail planes, same thing, but more room to compensate. But we've always had great organizers.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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>Some call that no-lift.

OH NO, Turbo went 'no-lift'. Quick, dial 911

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Rick 67]

Steep dives come with practice. I think you need to also work on getting everybody out the door quicker. You should be able to keep an 8 way pretty tight so there is not as much distance to cover getting to the base.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[jimmytavino 16]

good link...
before i opened it, i wondered to myself, "will this be "The Art of Freefall Relative Work" ?... copyright 1975....

so i grinned when I saw it was "United we Fall"
copyright 1978...
what works .... Works.... ( no pun intended)

I have had both books, in paperback on my bookshelf for many years and now have them in my hands..
Long before curriculums , videos, websites, or even the USPA SIM,,, there existed, the Bible of skyding Relative Work , waiting to be read, studied and absorbed, by any and all eager Parachutists, accuracy jumpers, and style affecionados... That facet of the sport had been a growing and exciting one, since the early 70's and Pat Works is to be thanked for his willingness to share so generously what was being learned and developed concerning it. Likewise the brothers Nelson, were complimenting the west coast contribution by growing RW in other parts of the country...Our questions were answered, techniques were explained, diagrams were shared, and the "art" was dispersed throughout the community, by those who "Got it".....
Very good reading and the words still ring true...

now as for 'hard diving' to 'get down to a formation" airborne82nd,,,, DO bear in mind the fact that techniques may differ for each of us,,, dependent upon our own personal Body size, shape and weight....
What may work for a tall lanky, lightweight jumper,,, may not be ideal for a compact, stocky , and heavy jumper... So factor in those details, as you plan what's best for you, and yes.... keeping all jumpers in sight, NOT just the base,,,, is very important... Overrunning a diver who has stopped, but not yet docked,, can be a safety issue....as i'm sure you know.
.... as for the twin Bo...... i loooove the way they sound,,, on takeoff,,,,, but it's real work... to be the last one out that low door....

jimmy

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[bigdad510 1]

I had the same problem and sometimes still do if I don't do one thing before I dive....RELAX! If you try too hard, it's sometimes counter productive. I intentionally went out last on a lot of fun BFR jumps to improve my diving. Best way to get better at something is to practice it. Relax before you start your dive, and you may not have to go head down. I'm a very light, slow falling jumper, so it takes some work for me to fall fast. Good luck!

Great link by the way up top!

Brad

[jheadley 0]

I practiced some NO LIFT diving last weekend, and true to Cutaway, I ended up DIVING BLIND. I've got an Oxygn and in long steep dives, the wind comes into the small space in the visor, blowing my contacts out, and also there was a lot of water on the lense. I'm not sure if that was from the moisture of my eyes or what...

Has anyone else had this happen? I'm ok without my contacts, but with the condensation on my visor, I couldn't see well. I'm glad this wasn't on a bigway.

[GordonH 0]

Yes I found that on very long swoops when doing the 400-ways, I occasionally got into a position where the wind would get into the visor. The air was also fairly dry as we were using aviation oxygen in the plane...so to be sure we didn't lose our contact lenses, a couple of us wore goggles under our visors! You need to do whatever it takes to be safe, if that means doing this to ensure your lenses stay in then try it.

Since then I've never done it, but at the time I was holding the swoop position for 15-20 secs and my pro-Track was averaging 225mph.

dress for success.

Blue skies!
Gordon
Beware of advice from those with more posts than jumps ;-)

[Andy9o8 2]

My favorite quote from the book:

"Due to funnels, separation, high breaks and reforms, many relative workers pull between 2500 and 1500 ft. That leaves approximately 8 to 12 seconds of emergency working time."

The young 'uns don't believe we did it that way.

(BTW, that was written by Roger Nelson - BSBD)