RedDevil1102 0 #1 March 7, 2005 I have been trying to get a 4 way team together, but only have one other right now. We have others fill in. We have alot of trouble staying together. We always exit good, but when we go to turn our first point in randoms, we get away from each other. Could anybody possibly give us some drills we could use to get better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewGPM 0 #2 March 7, 2005 I find that there are two things that solve the separation problem. Eye contact and flying your slot. When you are looking at the center of the formation, you notice any separation right away. We worked on this during the dirt dive and while we practice on the creepers. Creeper time is free, freefall is expensive. During the dirt dive, make a point to maintain eye contact with the person across from you. Do the same while you're on the creeper. This is really helpful when you're turning 90 or 180 degrees from the center of the formation. When selecting points for your skydive, start with ones that keep a clear center...like stairstep diamond and donut. Work your way up to formations like bipole and phalanx, which make eye contact really tough. Flying your slot is a little tougher to work on. When you're swimming in a pool, you can stop swimming when grab the side. People tend to do the same thing on a skydive. Soon as they take grips, they relax. When the grips are released they tend to slide away from the center. Sometimes they even float or go low. Remind people of this and tell them to fly toward the center of the formation in between points. A great way to work on this in the air is a no contact skydive. Plan your 2 or 3 points, but in the air, nobody takes grips. They have to fly ALL the time. It's a really tough skydive, but you learn SOOOO MUCH! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #3 March 7, 2005 QuoteI have been trying to get a 4 way team together At 24 jumps? You may want to do some successful 2 ways before you do anything bigger? Keepin' it safe! Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewGPM 0 #4 March 7, 2005 Good point! I meant to include that in my post too. I was going to suggest doing some 2 ways, focusing on eye contact and flying your slot (no contact). Build good individual skills, then you can start building good team skills. Once you have a team, it's not a bad idea to do some 2-way drill dives as part of your training. The 4-way people I know spend most of the non-team jumps doing 2-way drill dives. They seem to be the BEST way to improve individual skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #5 March 7, 2005 QuoteI have been trying to get a 4 way team together, but only have one other right now. *** I saw your at Bragg, you ever come out to Carson let me know there's a slot waiting for you on the team i'm trying to put together. and on your question about staying together, i have to agree with what other are saying, i've seen the most improvement from 2 way no contact dives, so you have to fly the whole time, and you're forced to work to stay together. Good luck..History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elightle 8 #6 March 8, 2005 Definitely start with 2-way drills but make them good ones. One jumper should be a coach or an experienced jumper. Here are a couple good drills. Altitude Adjustment - the coach pops up 5 feet or so and you float up and match his fall rate. He sinks 5 feet or so and you sink and match his fall rate. Quarter Turns - from a face-to-face 2-way (star) the coach sits still and you present one side of your body (arm and leg) to his hands. Next, present your legs to the coach's hands (i.e., he cats on you). Next, present the other side of your body to the coach's hands. Last in the rotation, come back to the face-to-face 2-way (star). The coach should probably do the drill first so you can see the right way to do it. The upshot is that you will learn to maintain position while making 90-degree turns. Practice the above drills 3 or 4 times apiece. Also, attached is a PDF of an article I wrote for Parachutist for new 4-way teams. Welcome to 4-Way! Ed Lightle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites feuergnom 28 #7 March 8, 2005 thanks for the article - it's going to keep me & our upcoming jumpers very busy this season The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #8 March 8, 2005 If you are licensed and your partner is to, Then youhave a good start. Liek the others have said to you. 2 ways for now. Work on eye contact and stopping. It's wasy to get moving. It is hard to stop and be where you are supposed to be. Eyes are the most important thing for you right now. When people say eye contact that is just what they mean. THe two of you can work on setting a good center for when you finally get a 3rd and 4th. Go out and do no contact stop drills. Compressed to compressed, 180's thing like that. The idea is to turn in place and stop at the right angle. Keeping eye contact the entire time. Sounds a bit boring (it is) but it will help lay a good foundation for you and your partner .Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elightle 8 #9 March 9, 2005 Hi, Dom. Yes, they should definitely do the 2-way no-contact start and stop drills in addition to altitude adjustment drills. I plan on doing some myself as soon as it warms up here in Cold Country (Ohio). Basic 4-way is all about learning to move quickly and decisively to your next position with the added ability to stop on a dime. There's nothing more exhiliarating than cranking a fast 360 and knowing that as you stop you're in perfect position to take grips or be gripped. It doesn't get any better than that! Blues and all that stuff... Ed Lightle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elightle 8 #10 March 9, 2005 Dom, Me, again. I was wondering if I could use your advice about 2-way no contact stop drills in an article for Parachutist. It seems that the more I write the more I want to make it easier for newer jumpers to understand what's going on. Keep grabbin' ASS! Ed Lightle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites daveb 1 #11 March 9, 2005 QuoteWe have alot of trouble staying together. We always exit good, but when we go to turn our first point in randoms, we get away from each other. Falling straight down is alot more difficult than it sounds. Without a good reference, it's hard to tell who is moving. I assume your partner also relatively inexperienced? Your best option is to jump two ways with a more experienced jumper who can 'lay base' for you, that is, hold a heading and fall straight down so you can reference a static target. To this, add small variations like 90 degree turns in both directions, while maintaining fall rate, proximity and eye-contact(*) with the experienced jumper. When each of you can consistantly do this one-on-one with the experienced jumper, treat yourselves to a three way. Add some basic turns: 90, 180 and 360 to the mix. When you're consistant here, try two-ways again with each other, but this time have one of you stay static -- fall straight down while the other does 90s and 180s. Alternate. Allow yourself some time to learn these basics and realize that while is sounds simple and easy, it's surprisingly difficult to do well, especially with turns. A little investment up front will pay huge dividends very quickly. (*) Eye contact: this isn't just looking towards the other person, but literally a staring contest. It is not enough to "know" where the other jumper is; communication in 4way is primarily through the eyes. Make it a point to smile at each other, independent of how well the jump is going -- this instills so much confidence and 'feel-good' in one another, but you only know if you're looking directly at each other's faces and eyes. -- Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elightle 8 #12 March 9, 2005 Hi, Dave. Everybody in this thread has given excellent advice to RedDevil1102 about 2-way drills. Would it be okay with you if I use the information you provided in an article for Parachutist? I realize that the information we provide in these forums is pretty much public knowledge once we hit "Post Reply," but, ethically, it is a good idea to ask for permission to use the information in a piece of journalism. Thanks in advance, Ed Lightle D-5966 Old Timer But Still 4-Way Crazy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #13 March 9, 2005 Another 2 way drill to keep in mind once you are ready to add in another challenge is to have one person fly base and the other orbits around taking different grips. ie, one person falls in place the other starts with two way grips, moves around to side body, then cat grips, then sidebody on the other side, then back around to 2way grips. i have yet to try this one but have heard of it a few times. i'm still working on turning in place!!!History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #14 March 9, 2005 Yup you can!! Same with me the more I learn the more I want to pass on. QuoteKeep grabbin' ASS! Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites daveb 1 #15 March 9, 2005 Of course you can! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bob.dino 1 #16 March 9, 2005 Australia has a set of training tables for basic RW which you must complete to obtain a B licence. It's quite a good introduction to the skills needed for RW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #17 March 10, 2005 So Dave...... HOw did you feel after tunnel league? My damn arms are still sore.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #18 March 10, 2005 Quote(*) Eye contact: this isn't just looking towards the other person, but literally a staring contest. It is not enough to "know" where the other jumper is; communication in 4way is primarily through the eyes. Make it a point to smile at each other, independent of how well the jump is going -- this instills so much confidence and 'feel-good' in one another, but you only know if you're looking directly at each other's faces and eyes. Well said. Sounds easy but it takes parctice. If you are doing it right you should notice just how damn ugly your partner really is. Plus people make funny faces when they are trying to turn real fast!!!!!Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites daveb 1 #19 March 10, 2005 Well, after 5 hours in the wind over the preceding two days, I got into that zone were I was too tired and sore to notice I was sore and tired. ;-) I'd do it again in a heartbeat! Actually, I felt pretty good, although I found it mentally very taxing. I should apologize to my various teammates for the brainlocks. But everyone was so UP and friendly, it was impossible to not enjoy the event. There is alot of really good talent around Perris. I'm jealous of y'all for having such a cool toy in your backyard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elightle 8 #20 March 10, 2005 Thanks, Dom. The Dropzone.com forums are a great place to share information and try to keep up with all you 4-way gurus . I promise to write a great article. BTW, look for my article on fine-tuning FS skills in the April issue. Blues, - Ed - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elightle 8 #21 March 10, 2005 Dave, Just wanted to thank you for permission to use your info on 2-way drills in an article. Have a Great Season! Ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #22 March 10, 2005 QuoteThere is alot of really good talent around Perris. As well as in Texas. QuoteI'm jealous of y'all for having such a cool toy in your backyard. Come back anytime. WE love to share!!!Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #23 March 10, 2005 Good luck with the article Ed.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RedDevil1102 0 #24 March 13, 2005 Thanks everybody for your help. I have been doing 2 ways now, with work on eye contact.. It has helped alot. It showed when we did a 4 way today and we got through most of the points. Im also lucky to have people like Chris Talbert around to help. Thanks to everybody again.The brave may not live forever, but the cautious do not live at all Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dgskydive 0 #25 March 14, 2005 keep us posted!!! Good luckDom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
elightle 8 #6 March 8, 2005 Definitely start with 2-way drills but make them good ones. One jumper should be a coach or an experienced jumper. Here are a couple good drills. Altitude Adjustment - the coach pops up 5 feet or so and you float up and match his fall rate. He sinks 5 feet or so and you sink and match his fall rate. Quarter Turns - from a face-to-face 2-way (star) the coach sits still and you present one side of your body (arm and leg) to his hands. Next, present your legs to the coach's hands (i.e., he cats on you). Next, present the other side of your body to the coach's hands. Last in the rotation, come back to the face-to-face 2-way (star). The coach should probably do the drill first so you can see the right way to do it. The upshot is that you will learn to maintain position while making 90-degree turns. Practice the above drills 3 or 4 times apiece. Also, attached is a PDF of an article I wrote for Parachutist for new 4-way teams. Welcome to 4-Way! Ed Lightle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 28 #7 March 8, 2005 thanks for the article - it's going to keep me & our upcoming jumpers very busy this season The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #8 March 8, 2005 If you are licensed and your partner is to, Then youhave a good start. Liek the others have said to you. 2 ways for now. Work on eye contact and stopping. It's wasy to get moving. It is hard to stop and be where you are supposed to be. Eyes are the most important thing for you right now. When people say eye contact that is just what they mean. THe two of you can work on setting a good center for when you finally get a 3rd and 4th. Go out and do no contact stop drills. Compressed to compressed, 180's thing like that. The idea is to turn in place and stop at the right angle. Keeping eye contact the entire time. Sounds a bit boring (it is) but it will help lay a good foundation for you and your partner .Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elightle 8 #9 March 9, 2005 Hi, Dom. Yes, they should definitely do the 2-way no-contact start and stop drills in addition to altitude adjustment drills. I plan on doing some myself as soon as it warms up here in Cold Country (Ohio). Basic 4-way is all about learning to move quickly and decisively to your next position with the added ability to stop on a dime. There's nothing more exhiliarating than cranking a fast 360 and knowing that as you stop you're in perfect position to take grips or be gripped. It doesn't get any better than that! Blues and all that stuff... Ed Lightle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elightle 8 #10 March 9, 2005 Dom, Me, again. I was wondering if I could use your advice about 2-way no contact stop drills in an article for Parachutist. It seems that the more I write the more I want to make it easier for newer jumpers to understand what's going on. Keep grabbin' ASS! Ed Lightle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daveb 1 #11 March 9, 2005 QuoteWe have alot of trouble staying together. We always exit good, but when we go to turn our first point in randoms, we get away from each other. Falling straight down is alot more difficult than it sounds. Without a good reference, it's hard to tell who is moving. I assume your partner also relatively inexperienced? Your best option is to jump two ways with a more experienced jumper who can 'lay base' for you, that is, hold a heading and fall straight down so you can reference a static target. To this, add small variations like 90 degree turns in both directions, while maintaining fall rate, proximity and eye-contact(*) with the experienced jumper. When each of you can consistantly do this one-on-one with the experienced jumper, treat yourselves to a three way. Add some basic turns: 90, 180 and 360 to the mix. When you're consistant here, try two-ways again with each other, but this time have one of you stay static -- fall straight down while the other does 90s and 180s. Alternate. Allow yourself some time to learn these basics and realize that while is sounds simple and easy, it's surprisingly difficult to do well, especially with turns. A little investment up front will pay huge dividends very quickly. (*) Eye contact: this isn't just looking towards the other person, but literally a staring contest. It is not enough to "know" where the other jumper is; communication in 4way is primarily through the eyes. Make it a point to smile at each other, independent of how well the jump is going -- this instills so much confidence and 'feel-good' in one another, but you only know if you're looking directly at each other's faces and eyes. -- Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elightle 8 #12 March 9, 2005 Hi, Dave. Everybody in this thread has given excellent advice to RedDevil1102 about 2-way drills. Would it be okay with you if I use the information you provided in an article for Parachutist? I realize that the information we provide in these forums is pretty much public knowledge once we hit "Post Reply," but, ethically, it is a good idea to ask for permission to use the information in a piece of journalism. Thanks in advance, Ed Lightle D-5966 Old Timer But Still 4-Way Crazy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #13 March 9, 2005 Another 2 way drill to keep in mind once you are ready to add in another challenge is to have one person fly base and the other orbits around taking different grips. ie, one person falls in place the other starts with two way grips, moves around to side body, then cat grips, then sidebody on the other side, then back around to 2way grips. i have yet to try this one but have heard of it a few times. i'm still working on turning in place!!!History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #14 March 9, 2005 Yup you can!! Same with me the more I learn the more I want to pass on. QuoteKeep grabbin' ASS! Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 1 #16 March 9, 2005 Australia has a set of training tables for basic RW which you must complete to obtain a B licence. It's quite a good introduction to the skills needed for RW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #17 March 10, 2005 So Dave...... HOw did you feel after tunnel league? My damn arms are still sore.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #18 March 10, 2005 Quote(*) Eye contact: this isn't just looking towards the other person, but literally a staring contest. It is not enough to "know" where the other jumper is; communication in 4way is primarily through the eyes. Make it a point to smile at each other, independent of how well the jump is going -- this instills so much confidence and 'feel-good' in one another, but you only know if you're looking directly at each other's faces and eyes. Well said. Sounds easy but it takes parctice. If you are doing it right you should notice just how damn ugly your partner really is. Plus people make funny faces when they are trying to turn real fast!!!!!Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daveb 1 #19 March 10, 2005 Well, after 5 hours in the wind over the preceding two days, I got into that zone were I was too tired and sore to notice I was sore and tired. ;-) I'd do it again in a heartbeat! Actually, I felt pretty good, although I found it mentally very taxing. I should apologize to my various teammates for the brainlocks. But everyone was so UP and friendly, it was impossible to not enjoy the event. There is alot of really good talent around Perris. I'm jealous of y'all for having such a cool toy in your backyard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elightle 8 #20 March 10, 2005 Thanks, Dom. The Dropzone.com forums are a great place to share information and try to keep up with all you 4-way gurus . I promise to write a great article. BTW, look for my article on fine-tuning FS skills in the April issue. Blues, - Ed - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elightle 8 #21 March 10, 2005 Dave, Just wanted to thank you for permission to use your info on 2-way drills in an article. Have a Great Season! Ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #22 March 10, 2005 QuoteThere is alot of really good talent around Perris. As well as in Texas. QuoteI'm jealous of y'all for having such a cool toy in your backyard. Come back anytime. WE love to share!!!Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #23 March 10, 2005 Good luck with the article Ed.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedDevil1102 0 #24 March 13, 2005 Thanks everybody for your help. I have been doing 2 ways now, with work on eye contact.. It has helped alot. It showed when we did a 4 way today and we got through most of the points. Im also lucky to have people like Chris Talbert around to help. Thanks to everybody again.The brave may not live forever, but the cautious do not live at all Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #25 March 14, 2005 keep us posted!!! Good luckDom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
