4 way break off

[Praetorian 1]

I'm thinking about my novice 4 way team (we're still working on a name) and I was thinking about break off Standard is everyone 180 and tracks out from center... doing this puts EVERYONE out of sight of everyone else... I was thinking if we all turned 90deg R (or L as long as we all agree plan the jump jump the plan) we still achieve the same seperation (all moving out from center) but we each have at least one other is sight assuring we have seperation, as we are all novices I think this Is a better plan ... opinions? thoughts? Input? ..ESPECIALLY if I'm totally wrong!!

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[Ron 10]

180 from center works ALL the time, for any sized dive.

Don't over think it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[matthewcline 0]

What we do in all RW jumps is turn 180 degres from formation center. For some it would be more expaditous to turn left as it may be a shorter turn, but the end result is the same we turn from the formation's center and track to gain reasonable horizontal seperation.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[freefalle 0]

180 and go


Git 'er dunn

[skydivingfool 0]

To add to Ron's post

180 from the center works for any dive.

There are pleny of 4 way formations that will not allow a simple everyone turn right or left 90.

[rehmwa 2]

1 - If you are implying sidesliding for separation, don't, it's not as fast

2 - If you just mean flying straight away from each other by flying up the quadrant to your right instead of turning around and flying out the quadrant to your rear, then think for a bit..........your line of sight gives you no benefit - it's nearly the exact same thing.

Don't over think it, turn directly away from center (whatever angle that is 180 for star, 90 for a donut, mixed for others) and get away in your very own quadrant of the sky - watch for each other on opening and under canopy. It's that simple.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Travman 6]

I think turning 180 from centre is very tried and true. You should still be able to see your other jumpers. Just look left, right and between your legs.

[YahooLV 0]

Remember you will have a camera flyer to get away from.

DON"T HURT THE CAMERA!!

(just my two cents)

http://www.curtisglennphotography.com

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Remember you will have a camera flyer to get away from.

DON"T HURT THE CAMERA!!

Right, Cameras are expensive, try to roll away from the camera onto the cameraman's lower back and spine or even his legs. It'll save bundles in the cost of new lenses, losing the video, etc.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[aureua 0]

Like rehmwa said...both 90 and 180 degree turns give you apprx 90 degrees of separation (visualize both and you'll see why) so there is no real advantage to the 90 degree turn over the 180.

The advantage with the 180 is that jumper A can turn and track without waiting for jumper B to make make his/her turn. Imagine you and I are in a compressed and my audible goes off before yours. I make my 90 degree turn but you're in my way. I either need to wait for you to turn or try and track over/under/around you. The delay means I track a shorter distance before my second beep (less separation between you, me, and the camera flyer) or I ignore my second beep and complete my track resulting in a lower pull altitude than anticipated.

Even if we both turn at the same time there's a chance we could end up facing each other and collide while trying to track around each other. With a 180 degree turn our airspace is clear and we can track and deploy as planned regardless of what the other is doing.

[YahooLV 0]

If ya don't have video, it never happened.

http://www.curtisglennphotography.com

[druspork 0]

The direction of the track(s) is more important than the turn that got you there. 180 is standard and easy stick with it.

The tweak to consider is to make sure no-one tracks down the jump run. Keep away from other groups, the better you can track, the more important this is.

Dru

[Remster 30]

Quote

The tweak to consider is to make sure no-one tracks down the jump run

What?

Sorry, but 4 way RW, or any kind of RW , you just turn and track. Leave enough seperation between groups so that there is no overlaps, but Staying off jump run is not a practical consideration.

Remster

[divnswoop 0]

The 180 theory is good assuming everybody is facing the centerpoint on the 4-way.....That rarely happens..There are only a couple of 4-way formations where you can "turn 180 and track". As your learning the formations you'll notice that certain people are normally on a certain side of you. (unless your doing b slots or mirror images/slot switches) Try to visualize all the formations having a quadrant for each jumper. The "point" will rarely turn at all to track.(because they are normally facing away from the centerpoint of the formation.) It's important to start your track at a 90 degree angle to the two closest teamates. Tail(and point) are tracking at a 90 away from outside center and inside center. Watch airspeeds tapes, they do an excellent job of dividing all the points into 4 quadrants. Your job is to know the point and where your quadrant is in relation to the point so you do the appropriate turn to get the best separation.

[kallend 2,030]

What Ron said, and in addition track like you mean it. You don't have to go far to get separation on a 4-way, but when you get invited on that 140 way sequential jump you don't want to have developed any lazy tracking habits.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tdog 0]

I think everyone has said 180 from the center... Your question was directed towards seeing others as you break off:

Quote

but we each have at least one other is sight assuring we have seperation

I had a close call on a track, so I know your fear of track, track, track and pull hoping you got where you needed to be. I hated not knowing where I was relative to the others…

After that close call I still do the same 180 from center, but as I am tracking I look over my shoulders (both) and quickly make sure others are doing the same. I found in the last 10 jumps I was able to keep tracking stable and on course while checking quickly the "rear view mirror" to make sure we all got our angles right in the first second or so of the track. A quick glance is all it takes…

This skill came in real handy on a dive that at breakoff really had no formation as we had a burble incident and I was being rodeoed. Somehow I was left with less than 180 for my "quadrant" - so by checking over my shoulder I was able to split the difference and get equally as far away from the other too. On that dive, I spent most of my track looking back and forth at the other two correcting heading more than once. Since I had practiced it on non-rodeoed skydives, when the shit hit the fan, I had the skill in my bag of tricks to quickly use.

I will let the more experienced guys chime in and tell me if I am doing something right or wrong, but so far, it has worked well for me and certainly increased my awareness.

[kallend 2,030]

Quote

I think everyone has said 180 from the center... Your question was directed towards seeing others as you break off:

Quote

but we each have at least one other is sight assuring we have seperation

I had a close call on a track, so I know your fear of track, track, track and pull hoping you got where you needed to be. I hated not knowing where I was relative to the others…

After that close call I still do the same 180 from center, but as I am tracking I look over my shoulders (both) and quickly make sure others are doing the same. I found in the last 10 jumps I was able to keep tracking stable and on course while checking quickly the "rear view mirror" to make sure we all got our angles right in the first second or so of the track. A quick glance is all it takes…

This skill came in real handy on a dive that at breakoff really had no formation as we had a burble incident and I was being rodeoed. Somehow I was left with less than 180 for my "quadrant" - so by checking over my shoulder I was able to split the difference and get equally as far away from the other too. On that dive, I spent most of my track looking back and forth at the other two correcting heading more than once. Since I had practiced it on non-rodeoed skydives, when the shit hit the fan, I had the skill in my bag of tricks to quickly use.

I will let the more experienced guys chime in and tell me if I am doing something right or wrong, but so far, it has worked well for me and certainly increased my awareness.

IMO you will do better looking between your feet than over your shoulder to see what's going on behind you when tracking. If you can't see your feet, you aren't tracking hard enough or you drink too much beer.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tdog 0]

Quote

IMO you will do better looking between your feet than over your shoulder to see what's going on behind you when tracking. If you can't see your feet, you aren't tracking hard enough or you drink too much beer.

I will try that too. Thanks for the advice.

[druspork 0]

Are you so sure Remster?

You can only guarantee separation from the group in front, and then only on the basis that there is no hot tracker pummeling down the line for longer than should be the case. And no control on separation with the group behind.

A 4-w needs space for only 5 people, imho there's no need for any of them to track down the drop run.

Dru

[kallend 2,030]

Quote

Are you so sure Remster?

You can only guarantee separation from the group in front, and then only on the basis that there is no hot tracker pummeling down the line for longer than should be the case. And no control on separation with the group behind.

A 4-w needs space for only 5 people, imho there's no need for any of them to track down the drop run.

Dru

How about 8 ways and 12 ways? Having a different break off protocol for 4-ways than for bigger groups will just lead to confusion. Proper separation IS the key.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

Remster is right. Best to learn about how to read winds and do separation planning correctly. kallend has a good model on his website (or the graphical version on omniskore.com)

We used to fly forward and underneath each other to track - but only because it really pissed off one previous teammate. Everyone still had their quadrant. (The one teammate never really tracked that far anyway - but he thought he did. We had a fairly nervous camerman that year because of this guy.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[dgskydive 0]

Some people are telling you 180 and some are saying 180 from the formation.

They all mean 180 from the formation!!!!! Don't get fancy and put your self in a bad situation. !80 for the center means that you may not turn at all. Just point you butt at the center of the formation and track like a mofo.

I and you in time will be able to see all of your buddies while tracking away. It just takes a bit more awarness, that comes with time. I can even see our camera pull from time to time. As I am turning away from the formation, I take the time to see each person and know where they are going. Then I look back nder my body to see them again, and adjust my heading if needed.

Dom

[adamsr 0]

as has been said in previous posts it's 180 degrees from the centre of the formation.

also when tracking look left and right, make sure you are going into clear airspace. That way if someone else is tracking more or less the same direction as you, you will see them and can ajust the line of your track so you are on a diverging course.

[tbrown 26]

They all mean 180 from the formation!!!!! Don't get fancy and put your self in a bad situation. !80 for the center means that you may not turn at all. Just point you butt at the center of the formation and track like a mofo.

[billvon 3,008]

>A 4-w needs space for only 5 people, imho there's no need for any
>of them to track down the drop run.

You are much better off just tracking to all points of the compass than having one jumper turn away from line of flight (and thus be closer to someone else) or - worse yet - have everyone pause for two seconds at breakoff to figure out where line of flight is.

You decide your group separation in the airplane. You get your individual separation at breakoff. Don't sacrifice either one.