4 Way screw up team needs advice.

[SuperKat 0]

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Putting the heaviest and least experienced on point is a bad combo. AT least in my opinion. The point spends most of it's time facing out and it is setting him up to go low A LOT! I would put him on tail and let him anchor the exits out. Plus being on tail he can see everything and it will help him to stay in the formation. Tail is usually the last one on so don't get pissy with him for it.

The centers are the most important. Ooutside has huge moves and he needs to be very confident in what he is doing. Inside Center sets the angles and he needs tobe even more confident in the moves he makes. Point and Tail (while still very important) need a good center to know where to put themselves. '

This is way over my head. I hope if and when we decide to get coaching, she'll explain this theory in idiot terms for me.

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What exits are you doing that you are taking chest strap grips out the door? A round? IF so just take arm grips.

Yes, a round. That's usually our initial plan. Get the round down on exit.

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Also you wearing video on every jump is not going to do much to help[ you figure things out. You need camera from above. All your angle will really show is........ welll to be honest not much that will really help you to figure out your problems. If you are doing the right thing (eye contact) you will not pick up much on your camera. Plus, it is more of a distraction then anything.

Amen to that. I stopped doing that. I will only wear video on my head if I'm not in the formation and I intend on doing strictly video.

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Even if he were stable but fell fast, wouldn't you think we're depriving him from learning how to control his fall rate if we always matched his fall rate?

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YOu are trying to fall is a team. All of yo shouldbe in the middle of your fall rate (this is done with weights most of the time) IT is a pet peeve of mine when I see a 4 way guy (or girl) wearing a baggy jumpsuit. I wonder what your team fall rate is? That is the first thing to work out. It think Ed said it earlier. Go out and doa no contact Star. Fall across from each other and try to stay relative. From there you will adjust the rate by having people change jumpsuits or ad weights? The centers usually set the fall rate but, it needs to be comfortable for all.

We all started wearing RW suits the past 20 jumps together. I think we may still all be adjusting to wearing booties. The other 300jump guy always wore an RW suit since he started jumping. Which is why he's the best flyer of us all. I used to be the guy that you hated, the one wearing a baggy suit. I used to jump with a freefly suit that had leg grips and should grips. I have about 250 skydives on that suit. I flew so efficiently, relaxed and stable with that suit. This RW suit that I'm wearing now is so different for me. I wear sleeves with this suit as well. I get so frustrated because I sometimes go low with other people. When I flew with Cheri and Lindsay from O2, they said I fall just fine. They even took off their weights to see if others were right about my fast fall rate. However, when I flew with others in a 6-10 way formation, people said that I fell like a rock. I don't know which one it is and it's frustrating to know if my suit is giving me fall rate problems or not.

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Your profile says you jump at XKeys? Is that where you guys jump at as a team? There a god 4 way folks out there. The best thinhg for you guys is to have the others shit or get off the pot. Get coaching. I know you want to but...... they need to get on board.

There are so many good 4 way teams at the DZ. They're always in their team rooms so it's hard to ask for advice from them. When we do see them, they're usually dirt diving or on the plane so I can't really distract them to ask questions. I can only think of just paying for coach jumps.

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One thing I have learned is that the team needs to have the same goals and ambitions. THis includes coaching. If they don't want to get coaching and it sounds like all of you do. THen you guys may be doomed from the start. It will lead to a lot of finger pointing and frustration. You have a coach and he points out what needs to be fixed and how to do it.

We'll have to discuss our goals as a team together this weekend. I hope we all agree on getting coached jumps.

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If the other 3 don't see the need for coach...... well then find a new team. That is if you really want to learn 4 way. If this is just 4 guys playing around to have fun, well go have fun and not worry about it.

It sounds like you at least want more.

I do want more. However, I can't be expect for others to be on the same page too. I'll have to ask everyone and find out.

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Two things arching on the ground in front of a mirror (at least in my opinion) doesn't do a whole hell of a lot. IT just makes you tired. The best thing is jumping with video and having a coach look at it and tell him what to do. No offence to you, but I bet you need some work as well. I know I still do.

No offense taken. I found out this past weekend, I need to work on improvement too. I flew with two different guys. For the first time, I didn't have to chase them and when they were docking with me, my perception made me think that I was driving myself towards them so I stuck my arms out to stop and backslide so I wouldn't crash into them. This was a mistake on my part. I didn't know what the heck to do with my body and I had a fear instilled on me that they were coming fast towards me. I wasn't used to someone flying towards me so smoothly, it was weird and I didn't know how to react to it. Well, they both taught me that I should just fly with my arms bent and fist clenched to allow them to dock on my wrists. I tried this and it worked out well, I stayed in place and they docked on me.

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Also good teams don't just fly well. They are friends that is wear the energy comes from. If one person on the team keeps refering to his team mates as low timers they will start to resent it.

I never called them low timers to their face. I'm just giving them a label to describe them. Wrong choice of words on my part. Excuse my ignorance. It didn't occur to me that this would be an offensive description to them.

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You guys are a low time team that is learning together. Keep that additude and it will help a lot. The one thing you don't want to do is stress anyone to much. If it starts to not be fn then they will go bye-bye on ya and that really sucks after you have done lot's of jumps and lot's of monet onlt to have to find a 4th again.

Thanks. I will keep this in mind. I will not be the ahole in the group any longer. I'll just keep my mouth shut and let the experts point out the things we need to work on.

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[SuperKat 0]

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Dom hit the nail on the head...your attitude is going to rub off on your teammates. Go back and read some of your posts and think how you would feel if this were them talking about you.

Surprisingly, when I told my teammates that I would keep my mouth shut, they were taken aback by it. They didn't want me to stop criticizing the dive briefs. They said they appreciated my honesty. Weird, huh? I did point out their mistakes to them but I also gave some comments as to how to correct it going forward. Well, I'm sticking to my decision anyway, I'll let the experts point out the things we need to work on instead.

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In order for your team to progress, it would be a good idea for you all to sit down and have a meeting about your goals for the year. Has this already happened or did you just decide to throw the team together and went right to jumping?

We did have this talk already. I think getting the team together mentally is just a work in progress. I must learn patience and accomodate everyone else's speed.

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You need to talk about each person's goal and the collective team goals...right there you will find out if the 4 of you are suited to be teammates. Next, talk about how you are expecting to achieve the goal, time, money, committment. If there are discrepencies, you need to come to a comprimise.

Good advice. I'll bring this point up to them.

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It sounds to me that your team did not come to team consensus on anything, especially since you have split the team down the middle according to jump #'s.

Well, I only split up the team in two 2 ways so that we can get our fall rates and flying in heading down. The fact that everyone was just all over the place in position and fall rate was a bit dangerous to me. I wanted to minimize the danger for us all. Even with over 300 jumps, I'm still working on watching out for my surroundings and flying my body. It's a hard thing to master, let me tell you.

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Remember: jump numbers is just the accounting system that tells you how many times you have left the plane. It says nothing about a person's personal ability in the air. Don't handicap a person just because they have less jumps than you.

Tell me about it. Some guy posted their 4 way video when he only had 50 jumps. Let me tell you, I was embarassed and ashamed of myself. I cannot even hold a candle to that guy.

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I also agree that an exit with grips on a chest strap is not the most stable way to exit the plane. Arm and leg harness grips are a much more stable way to get out. Remember, in the door, you are already in a funnel. Each one of you need to figure out where you are going to put yourself to get out of that funnel. It is a team effort. It is a good idea to nail one exit successfully. If you were to try a Meeker exit which is a structurally stable exit, you can easily transition to alot of the formations from there.

I hope they agree to the coaching. The eager side of me wants to get there yesterday. I will have to slow myself down and work at everyone else's speed.

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This has really been a great thread. I hope that you take some of these pointers and share them with your teammates. I wish your team success and fun.

Thanks. I will definitely share these pointers with my team. Whether or not they take it at face value is a different case. I'm just hoping for the best and hope that we can all come to some kind of terms. Thank you all for your help!

What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo?

[Samurai136 0]

If you each spent $900 on the tunnel with a coach that would work out to about 90 minutes a piece of flying time (90 skydives). If you then shared your time with each other, piece partners flying together, after 30 minutes of solo training you could come out of a team camp with 2.5 hours of flying time or more!

So for the cost of 45 jumps you could get 150 jumps worth of training and experience.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[BoostedXT 0]

I tried my first 4 way this past weekend and we didnt do so good.

One of the biggest things I kept hearing from the coaches and talking to people is look through the formation. In her direct words..."You cant fix what you cant see." if you can look through often times fallrate and other stuff tightens up.

I have a butt load of practice but I am looking forward to it. Try it,.....it might work.
Joe

For long as you live and high you fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all that you touch and all that you see is all your life will ever be.
Pedro Offers you his Protection.

[dgskydive 0]

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One of the biggest things I kept hearing from the coaches and talking to people is look through the formation. In her direct words..."You cant fix what you cant see." if you can look through often times fallrate and other stuff tightens up.

Let me take that one step further for you. Bigways are a good time to look "through" a formation. When doing 4 way, yes you are looking through the formation, but more importantly, you shl\ould be looking into your clones eyes. Look right at them. Not the face or the general area of the eyes. I mean stare that mofo down!!!!

The communication you can get from looking into a persons eyes is key to 4 way.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

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Surprisingly, when I told my teammates that I would keep my mouth shut, they were taken aback by it. They didn't want me to stop criticizing the dive briefs. They said they appreciated my honesty. Weird, huh? I did point out their mistakes to them but I also gave some comments as to how to correct it going forward. Well, I'm sticking to my decision anyway, I'll let the experts point out the things we need to work on instead.

Just make sure that you know what you are saying when giving them criticism. The worst thing would be for you to start correcting and then find out you where wrong about it all.

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I will have to slow myself down and work at everyone else's speed.

It's like that on every 4 way team. Even the big dogs!!!! You can only fly as fast as the slowest member of the team. There is always a person catching up to the rest of the team. At times it may be you and at times it may be the other guys. It is good to push them to go faster and harder, but you can't go faster till they do and that is the hard part of 4 way (at least for me). Knowing when to light a fire under someone or letting them figure it out.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

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The team is doing pretty well. I don't know what they're showing that looks so good, but Samer is still potato chipping, Chris is not aggressive enough, I'm a floaty b*tch, Mark doesn't want to hire a coach

I saw some of your tapes this weekend as well. That Samer loves to show video of you guys. You guys looked good Dave. Except for that Mark guy. He needs to learn to control his legs a bit more at times they look like they are broke at the knee flopping all over the place. I think I would get rid of him.

Dom

[rehmwa 2]

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I mean stare that mofo down!!!!The communication you can get from looking into a persons eyes is key to 4 way.

Absolutely key. I like to make faces and try to get my clone to laugh. If you are communicating it's so much more relaxed.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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You can only fly as fast as the slowest member of the team.

You know you are dialed in to each other when it's not a race. Once everyone gets together, the person with the biggest move is the last in. Live with it. It's a good sign, not a bad one if you are last and had the biggest move - even if it was fast and perfect, it means your teammates are also doing their jobs fast and perfect. revel in it

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[murphyka 0]

Our team has been told time and time again that you should be able to have a conversation with your clone during a skydive. I have been flying with the same clone in 4-way and 8-way for a little over a year now and it is amazing how much communicating you can do just through your eyes. Heck, we decide where the group is going to dinner during the middle of a jump.

Blue Skies!!!
Kimmy

[daveb 1]

Isn't that something? I'm looking across at a multiple time World Champion doing some radical leg motions, boring a hole through my soul with his gaze, wondering what I'm screwing up now and what is he trying to tell me? ;-) We are certainly making him work for his money!

[dgskydive 0]

We sat around Saturday night and picked his brain for at least 5 hours. He loves to talk 4 way and I loved hearing it.

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boring a hole through my soul with his gaze,

ARe you sure he is looking at your soul. I get confused where he is looking sometimes

Dom

[GQ_jumper 4]

so if you're staring into their eyes while you are facing them what are you staring into when they are outfacing

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[dgskydive 0]

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so if you're staring into their eyes while you are facing them what are you staring into when they are out facing

Have you seen the Exorcist? Look over you damn shoulder as much as you can and see what you can. Like when on point. It is almost impossible to see your clone a lot of the time. In that case the point flier is really trusting the centers to give him a good picture and to be confident in where they are going so he can see the slot and puthimslef where he needs to be. Thee bottom line is do everything you can to see your clones eyes and if you can't, see as much as possible.

Dom

[GQ_jumper 4]

Have you seen the Exorcist? Look over you damn shoulder as much as you can and see what you can.***

i'll give it a couple more tries to see if anyone throws out the reply/joke i was trollin for!!!

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

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i'll give it a couple more tries to see if anyone throws out the reply/joke i was trollin for!!!

This is supposed to be a serious forum!

I love flying Point because I greatly enjoy outfacing moves, but now that you said that...hmmm...

[GQ_jumper 4]

Dan think's to himself **ahhh, she's figured out why we always try and put the women there**

I swear we were staring at your eyes

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[rehmwa 2]

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This is supposed to be a serious forum!

I love flying Point because I greatly enjoy outfacing moves, but now that you said that...hmmm...

And like to creep with cute women that like to fly point, especially when they are wearing shorts.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[BoostedXT 0]

Hey no shop lifting the pooty on 4ways dude....

Joe

For long as you live and high you fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all that you touch and all that you see is all your life will ever be.
Pedro Offers you his Protection.

[GQ_jumper 4]

Hey no shop lifting the pooty on 4ways dude....

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don't hate me cause i'm beautiful

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[Bergen 0]

I have 3 pieces of advice that really hepled, or would have helped out team out.

First, pair up and do some two-way. One new guy with one veteran. I'm not sure what kind of airplane you are using, but if it is an otter, you can launch a sidebody with the new guy being the top of the
T and the vet being the vertical part. Start with the new guy goung out head first and parallel with the wing. After you nail it a time or two, have the new guy backing out and kicking his legs up to get horizontal. This drill is good for teaching timing, body position, and presentation. Two way exits are simpler and are good for teaching the basics.

Second, a good two way drill for beginners, start with a two way star, have the new guy drive forward to a closed accordion, swing around to a cat, pivot back to another closed accodion, and slide back to a two way. Repeat on the other side. The vet just falls. The vet can vary fall rate after a few jumps to add excitement.

My last tip is to rotate the captainship and team responsibilities each week. This will ensure that each team member is fully invested in the team and has additional investment in the process. Specifically, each member should be responsible for briefing a dive flow. The new guys might need help at first, but they will learn a-lot from being in the hot seat.

Good luck

Warmth comes from the fire, not the smoke. The light knows where you are.

[Rudderow 2]

so now that you guys did your coach jumps last weekend, what did you learn?

PMS #165 Swooo #613 CSA #687

[pathfinder4ca 0]

TUNNEL TUNNEL TUNNEL This is where you need to get it my friend, Take your whole team one weekend and split an hour in there (with a coach) this way you will all see each other and learn the same ways of maintaining fall rates etc etc. This is the best thing you can do and the best thing about it is you dont have to worry about saving your life! and you get immediate feed back from your coach, and you can still learn from your friends while they are in the tunnel. Good luck

REMEMBER! If your not living on the edge..... your taking up too much space!