Mirrors vs double slot switches.

[AMax 0]

Advantages and disadvantages?

[dgskydive 0]

We went with switchers this year as it just made more sense to us. You get used to seeing things a certain way. Then to go and mirror it just got confusing at times.

I think it is a decision to make as a team and every team is different, but to us it a choice made on how comfortable we felt with one as opposed to the other. Swithers made more sense to us and our little brains. There were a few times when we went with the mirrors and it showed in the lower scores we had.

You may have just opend a can of worms.

Dom

[rehmwa 2]

How about a description of each?

I understand 'swing move'. I know what mirrors and memories do. But not clear on the term "double slot switches"

I'd like to know my options. If we repeat the same lineup again, we'll go AAA next year so bring on the info.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[druspork 0]

And for the rest of us coming through the ranks...

Who does the mirror annoy (always all slots? Mostly the centres, mostly the long axis? The only mirror in our pool is 17, with our engineering 17 seems to mess with everyone. At least it's fast.)

And where do you swap - front end? Some other thought? Or spread it around?

Not a can of worms Dom, a bit of interest.

Dru

[rehmwa 2]

My current plan was to take the mirrors with OC and point, memories with IC and OC. Thus the tail has an important role and is unaffected although the visual changes. Eat the swing moves when it gets too funky.

I've been there so I know I can take much of it. But it still messes with you if things get going fast or wierd.

Important to also get people in thinking of the formations from the camera view rather than their slot view. It helps me a ton to visualize the whole thing rather than only my spot - makes it easier to do other slots.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AMax 0]

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How about a description of each?

I understand 'swing move'. I know what mirrors and memories do. But not clear on the term "double slot switches"

I'd like to know my options. If we repeat the same lineup again, we'll go AAA next year so bring on the info.

Lets say on 17 the tail does the solo move and the Pt is facing out on the bottom of the block.
If the centers keep doing the same job - it's a mirror for Pt/Tail. They are still doing their jobs as Pt and Tail but from the mirror picture.

In double slot switch engineering, on the bottom of 17 the Tail becomes IC, IC becomes tail, Pt become OC and OC becomes Pt.

It seems that double slot switching is easier for front piece flyers because they do a lot of slow switching anyway. For tail it’s a difference between learning mirrors and learning IC’s job ...

P.S.: Keep in mind that I know close to nothing .. this is just my understanding of how this works ..

[AMax 0]

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My current plan was to take the mirrors with OC and point

It's more popular to do slot switching on the front

[dgskydive 0]

A double slot switcher is just that. Where the front back peice are switched at the same time.

Example. You just completed block 3 (OC now becomes point) and the next block that somes up is block let's say 17 (now IC is tail). Now every one is in there b slot until the next 3.

Mirrors are just that as well. Right becomes left and left becomes right. Example you do a 17 and the next point is a meeker. Well point and tail are caing the other way and Oc andIc are taking trip in the center with ther right hands instead of left hands.

Looking for video right now.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

Bill, i know you like the way B.C. does things and he recommends one or the other. Better for continuity. Slots or mirrors but not both.

Again I have seen very good teams do both, but most pick one or the other and stick to it all year.

Still looking for video

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

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It's more popular to do slot switching on the front

it usually works out better that way. The only blocks we really switched the back piece in where 5's and 17's

Dom

[AMax 0]

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Slots or mirrors but not both.

Still looking for video

If you use mirrors and do all slot switching on the front it is both slots and mirrors for Pt

[dgskydive 0]

Go here



Then look at Rd 4 on Jun 25th

The dive is 8 5 K .

5 is a double slot switcher. The k looks the same each time but every other one I am on tail and OC is point.

If we were to mirror it we could have bulit the K the other way every other time.

As i as typing this i just got a call from Kurt Issenberger, former GK, World Champion in 4 and 8 way. He said they only used swithchers as welll.

http://www.skyleague.com/pages/teams/showTeam.php?team=528

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

You can get yourself in trouble by gettting to fancy. Stick to one or the other K.I.S.S.

Dom

[AAA4WAY 0]

I'd never switch centers if you can avoid it. You don't want to mix piece partners. That is not a great idea.

We keep most switches up front except for 5 and 17 ...we use 16 sometimes to undo a switch in the back and thus remove memory. Just like we remove memory in front with alternate 13 and 1 finishes given the chance.

We avoid mirrors whenever possible. I think a double switcher is easier to remember. It's all about the pictures and those mirror pictures just don't stick in my brain as well.

(in response to a prior post...not to dgskydive)

[dgskydive 0]

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I'd never switch centers if you can avoid it. You don't want to mix piece partners. That is not a great idea

Agreed. The way we did it the piece partners stays the same. Tail becomes IC and Point becomes OC.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

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(in response to a prior post...not to dgskydive)

I was trying to figure out how it looked like we switched centers.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

The key to all of it is keeping it simple and consistant. you can engineer yourself right out of the competition by getting to fancy.

Go for what is familiar a lot of times even if it is longer moves (this is more for a and b slots as opposed to switchers) it will be faster to go for what ya know, then to get to fancy. There is a lot to be said for muscle memory and seeing the same pictures. In the end that is why we went for Switchers instead of mirrors.

Dom

[Albatross 0]

I ahve done both and they both have advantages. The double slot switchers sets up fewer options for each slot. Everything is either switched or not. This allows the team to practice only 1 direction of each block. But it does require each person to be able to fly the center and the outside. It also means that each point has only 1 exit. So you get fewer options for each move but more ways to spread the switches but everyone has to do more jobs.
Using the mirror allows for the mirrored exit which can be a big help. It also means that the centers stay consistant which helps rhythem and consistancy for randoms. However it does mean that you introduce an new option of switched mirroed formations and means that the team either puts all of the memory in 1 piece or means that everyone needs to do both slots and mirrors.
I feel that it comes down to jump numbers and the abilities of the group.

Chris

[Ron 10]

Don't know if it has been answered, but heres the scoop.

Slot switchers are blocks that when done correctly normally switch two peoples slots....Simple huh? Normally the front half (OC and Point) takes the "Memory". So out the door everyone is in the normal slots (called A's). Then once the slot switch block is done then the OC and point chang places and does the others job (called B's)....OC is now Point, point is not OC. It stays that way until another slot switcher happens.

Slot switch blocks are: 3, 10, 12, 16

Mirrors: Mirrors are blocks that take the entire formation and flip it. You are still in your slot, but now the guy who was on your right is now on your left. So your SLOT is still the same, but to build the same point in the same slot you have to turn the other way. For example you launch a star, then build a right dount. After the dount you perform a mirror block then you build the star again (the guy on your right is now on your left) and then you build a donut...This time you build a LEFT donut. This can be a major mind burner.

The mirror blocks are: 5 & 17.

We got rid of mirrors and did double slot switchers. So now when 5 or 17 comes up both the front and the back take memory.

So you ask....Why?

OK. we already know that we have 16 randoms and 22 blocks. So there are 38 slots. If we take double slot switchers everyone has to learn 76 slots since they will all have memory. This allows everyone to know their piece partners job...And that helps.

With mirrors the back has 38 normal slots, and all 38 mirrored. So they stil have 76 slots. However the front has the 76 PLUS the mirrors, so they have to learn A's (38), B's (38), Mirrored A's (38), and mirrored B's (38) 152 moves.

Now since there are only 2 mirror blocks how much training do you think you will get in B slot mirrors in a normal plan?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AMax 0]

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OK. we already know that we have 16 randoms and 22 blocks. So there are 38 slots. If we take double slot switchers everyone has to learn 76 slots since they will all have memory. This allows everyone to know their piece partners job...And that helps.

With mirrors the back has 38 normal slots, and all 38 mirrored. So they stil have 76 slots. However the front has the 76 PLUS the mirrors, so they have to learn A's (38), B's (38), Mirrored A's (38), and mirrored B's (38) 152 moves.

Now since there are only 2 mirror blocks how much training do you think you will get in B slot mirrors in a normal plan?

Makes perfect sense

[rehmwa 2]

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I'd never switch centers if you can avoid it. You don't want to mix piece partners. That is not a great idea.

We keep most switches up front except for 5 and 17 ...we use 16 sometimes to undo a switch in the back and thus remove memory. Just like we remove memory in front with alternate 13 and 1 finishes given the chance.

We avoid mirrors whenever possible. I think a double switcher is easier to remember. It's all about the pictures and those mirror pictures just don't stick in my brain as well.

(in response to a prior post...not to dgskydive)

"You don't want to mix piece partners."

This one combined with the other posts, and I now get it. I was having issues with the descriptions.

1 -Memories are just memories - OC and Point (or IC and tail) need to get each others jobs. (3, 10, 12, 16) AAA is calling this single switcher. Been there, done that.

2 - When I was saying IC and OC take the mirrors, that meant switching roles (and piece partners). I understand why that's not a great idea although that's how we pulled it off in a previous team. Mirror blocks are 5 and 17 and can be executed as true mirrors, piece partner role changes (IC and OC change roles), or double SS.

3 - A 'double' SS means that after a mirror block, instead of what I have in #2 above, both set of piece partners will change roles to keep everything left handed. IC and Tail cross train, OC and Point cross train.

I like it and it's mentally simpler than what I've done previously. The double SS makes sense now by spreading out the training more evenly amongst everyone. My way had the OC learning 3 slots, the tail one slot, and the other 2 a couple slots. This has everyone needing to know 2 slots and eliminates mirroring moves and eliminates piece partner switches.

You guys are lucky having all that experience in the coastal DZs to draw from.

I'll propose this: front piece takes the memories (single switches), we use double switches to work the mirrors. If it gets complex, we can still use various things to unwind (swings, tail mems, etc). Now, how do we do all that cross training in just a 150 jump or less training season? (Dom will suggest moving somewhere warmer, of course). I think we work on individual skills a lot and hope whatever natural talent is there can handle the occasional oddball draw.

thanks all

Edit: it would help watching the big teams is each person wore a different colored jumpsuit.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AMax 0]

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... Now, how do we do all that cross training in just a 150 jump or less training season?

The power of visualization should not be underestimated

[dgskydive 0]

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Now, how do we do all that cross training in just a 150 jump or less training season? (Dom will suggest moving somewhere warmer, of course).

To be honest this situation doesn't come up that much.

And yes move to a warmer climate!!!!!

Dom

[rehmwa 2]

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... Now, how do we do all that cross training in just a 150 jump or less training season?

The power of visualization should not be underestimated

Yeah, but to get the other 3 to be as obsessive about it.... Nope, Dom's right. I should move to a year round DZ.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[druspork 0]

Yay Ron!

A calming point.

Dru