When is it time to go advanced?

[rehmwa 2]

Let's see what comes out.

I don't want to even get into the whole advanced vs open thing, the PC discussion gives me a headache.

In terms of the NSL with 4 classes, I think in any class, regularly exceeding a specific score of some kind should mean moving up and taking the next level of challenge. A 10 average is as arbitrary a number as any, but the point would be to just establish a criteria (i'm fine with 12 or 8 just as much). I think it would be a point of pride to have 'qualified' for the next higher level.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pr0ject42 0]

Sadly, I think it should be up to personal discretion.

The people who count know really what is going on. If you are just competing to get a chunk of metal on a cheap ribbon, it is time to re-evaluate. Go compete for yourself to fill your own needs. Get to that point average or get your block times down to whatever, those are the goals you have in your control, but what place you get in what division really is out of your hands.

If you want to take it to the next level, this community is small enough that you will be noticed if you are doing the right thing and doing it well.

[AMax 0]

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If you want to take it to the next level, this community is small enough that you will be noticed if you are doing the right thing and doing it well.

It is also small enough that you will be noticed if you are doing the wrong thing

[rehmwa 2]

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It is also small enough that you will be noticed if you are doing the wrong thing

Strangely enough, that's more of what I'm asking about. Which of these, if exceeded, will get noticed in a negative light by the 'peers'?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[bliston 0]

From personal experience, there will always be people that criticize success. The rules state, after you win you go up. People can bitch all they want, but until the rules change, I think people should compete where they are eligible. Sure if a team that gets silver or bronze decides to move up the next year, more power to them, but nobody should be talking shit if they say where they're eligible. Sure there are extreme cases where I'd say jumping in a lowere category is not in the spirit of competition(people that medal in advanced going down to win intermediate, for example), but for most cases, I'd stand by my words.

I disagree with anyone who says, "medals don't mean anything." You'll never know what your team is really made of until you have a medal to win or lose on the line. To me, that's the most exciting part of it all.

Ben

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[rehmwa 2]

that's a nice post - and no one is saying any rule of any kind is being broke, that would be too easy.

Most discussion like this I've seen had more to do with encouraging or discouraging newbie teams. Nice to talk about, but in the end - so what? Do you know of any teams dropping a category to get a medal? That's would have been something to see the discussion on that scenario.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[BikerBabe 0]

Do I know of teams who have done that? yeah. ask anyone who was at the 2002 nationals in chicago.

I couldn't answer your poll. You didn't have the answer on there I was looking for.

"As soon as you have a team willing to train regularly for a full season".

That's right. I'm all about challenge. My first team did Advanced right out the door. Averaged a 9. We had 1 tunnel camp as a team. But you know what? We learned the entire dive pool BEFORE anyone could pollute our minds with what was supposedly "hard" or "easy". EVERYTHING was equally difficult! We had a heck of a lot of fun. To be honest, you aren't going to look stupid to the top teams. They're just happy that people are competing in 4-way.

So you don't get a medal that first time. At least you challenged yourself and learned something.


A friend once told me this proverb: It's better to be the tail of the lion than the head of the fox.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[jmpwme 0]

The current system works as it sits. Self policing is really the only way to make it work for reasons that make my head hurt as much as the whole PC issue.

We all saw what happened in Chicago. It was ugly to say the least. We should all keep in mind, Nationals is not the NSL. This is what makes the NSL so great. Nationals is the US Championships. Teams should expect to pay their dues to win in any class. This is what makes Nationals so great. There is great pride in working your way up the ranks in any class. The Move-up rules, although they could be improved to remove some inequities, are liveable as a means to prevent sandbaggers when combined with self-policing. For the younger jumpers, the current state of play represents a huge improvement over what it used to be. Back in the day (when I walked to school in the snow, up hill, both ways, with only socks . . . .), there was only intermediate and open. Talk about sandbaggers there!!!!!

Currently, when asked - I tell teams in Intermediate if they are consistently 13+ on the intermediate draw, they should consider Advanced. Anything over 14 is baby killer time. For Advanced - the general rule is 15+ to consider open and 16 move up. These are just my guidelines based on current standards, but I think they are shared by many.

To Ben - Well said!

Steve
GT

[betterthanyou 0]

Then it would be ok for Carolina Ice and Arizona Divewerkz to return to Intermediate next year. I know the rules say they can return, but wouldn't public opinion dictate that both teams be gracious competitors and move up to Advanced?

What if they do stay in INT and wind up neck and neck for Gold with 15.5 averages. Not against the rules, but certainly in bad taste.

[AMax 0]

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Then it would be ok for Carolina Ice and Arizona Divewerkz to return to Intermediate next year. I know the rules say they can return, but wouldn't public opinion dictate that both teams be gracious competitors and move up to Advanced?

What if they do stay in INT and wind up neck and neck for Gold with 15.5 averages. Not against the rules, but certainly in bad taste.

look at Divewerkz progression - I wouldn't be surprised if they average 15.5 in Advanced next year

[jmpwme 0]

Based on my personal standard (with respect to which reasonable minds may differ), Ice and Divewirkz are on the cusp. They each have higher averages than Equinox ever had at a previous Nationals (their best I think was in the low 10's or high 9's). Personally, if I were those teams and staying together, I'd move up. If they were to do the 15 avg., it would be chicago revisited. In chicago, the Juggs had been doing 13+ in the AAA draw for the NSL season, then went intermediate. That was just plain wrong in my opinion, but it was legal under the rules. Accordingly, in my opinion again, they were booed loudly on the podium. Two members of that team did go on to win a very well respected Advanced class gold.

Now - if ICE and Werkz replace bodies and open the season at an honest 8 average - I guess I'm not so offended. I do think, however, if those teams stay together, they will move up AND be competitive in Advanced. If either team was to ask me, I'd suggest they move up. BUT - I'm just a guy with an opinion and nobody asked me nor would I expect them to either ask or listen to my opinion. Bottom line really is rules are rules until they are changed. This, however, will not change public opinion which, in our sport, is often a heavier hammer.

Edited to add: To Ben - Well Said.

Steve
GT

[darkwing 5]

I didn't vote, because I believe there should only be one class. We have like 19 classes now. I think there should be one class per team so everyone gets to be best.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[AMax 0]

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I didn't vote, because I believe there should only be one class. We have like 19 classes now. I think there should be one class per team so everyone gets to be best.

Opportunities and experience levels vary. Thats why there are several classes. If I just got started with 150 training jumps a year paying for my slot, I cannot be competitive with someone who has been competing for years, makes 1000 training jumps per year and gets paid for his slot.

[rehmwa 2]

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We all saw what happened in Chicago. ....

Currently, when asked - I tell teams in Intermediate if they are consistently 13+ on the intermediate draw, they should consider Advanced. .... These are just my guidelines ..... I think they are shared by many.

I'm not in-the-know on the Chicago scenario, I was obsessed then, but not REALLY obsessed until the last couple years. I don't want it aired out here, but if anyone wants to PM the situation, if there's more than what's written already, I'd be fascinated.

2 - You have a set of standards also with your personal guidelines. That's the kind of thing I was interested in. The 13+ guideline is pretty high for our area (or the NSL historically), my team is the only one in our region to even 'potentially' push it. But I'm not in the big DZs so I don't know what standards are 'shared by many'. By that guideline, since we just consistently broke into the mid to high 10's, you'd probably advise staying put for another season unless the challenge is needed for us to keep the fun factor in play. Thanks for the input. If your standards are typical, then I suspect we'll see the NSL also start to converge AA to the 13 average cutoff point. At least that would be consistent. It's a good checkpoint to shoot for next season - I'd be thrilled to get there.

In the end, I'm just happy/lucky to be competing with/against people I like about as much anybody.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[BikerBabe 0]

No need to explain. check out the link here.

It's pretty self-explanatory when you look at the scores.

http://www.omniskore.com/comp/2002/nats/2002_nats.htm

Like I said...why not challenge yourself? Go advanced. Who cares if you finish dead last? At least you were there, you met a challenge, and you learned a heck of a lot =)

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[AMax 0]

pretty fast intermediate draw

[Ron 10]

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Do I know of teams who have done that? yeah. ask anyone who was at the 2002 nationals in chicago.

Or ask anyone that hired an Open level skydiver to jump in a lower class.

Same thing in my opinion, in fact the Jugernauts had more right in my opinion. None had medaled in Advanced and then moved down.

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Like I said...why not challenge yourself? Go advanced. Who cares if you finish dead last? At least you were there, you met a challenge, and you learned a heck of a lot =)

Same could be said of why going Advanced, why not go open? Its the same draw.

The answer is people want medals. You think that 2002 was so bad, I think Player Coaches in Advanced are bad.

The difference each has to set their own level of acceptance.

My answer: I have never jumped in anything but Open 4way. Why? Well I think the Average we had was better than anything in Advanced. This year Mass Defiance came really close. But still they earned it IMO.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[bliston 0]

Mass Defiance didn't even consider going open because:

1. We worked our butts off last year and went home with nothing (4th place). Talk about a crappy feeling...

2. No player coach

3. Only one guy had an advanced medal before (the rest of us never had a 4-way medal from any category from any Nats

4. Our video guy had 2 video jumps at the start of our season and about 175 jumps total. He's a frikken rock star and is also the most natural "in the formation" jumper I've ever seem - watch out!

Lastly, we peaked at nationals - round 1 was by far the best 2 block and one random jump we've every done by 3 points! And, there's no way we would have even been where we were without getting pushed by other great advanced class teams, GT, Katalyst, and Gravity to name a few. Were we in the high 13 range at the beginning of August, and it took seeing what some other teams were doing to push us to the next level.

I'll say it again, pressuring any team out of the glory of competeing for a medal is they're eligible for is a crappy thing to do. There's nothing like having a spot on the podium on the line, it's the best and most exciting part of competing. Sure going for an average is fun and all, but it's not the same. Anyone that's been under the pressure knows what I mean, and I hope that anybody that loves competing gets to be in that unique spot, where you really find out what your made of, sometime in your skydiving career.

Ben

ps. this isn't a pissy response to Ron, just our thought process (right or wrong!) to share with other people who might be in the same boat

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[jmpwme 0]

Ron - you guys jumped in the right spot this year and rocked. Seriously impressive. I think you took honors for best weekend team in the country.

Ben - you guys were also in the right class this year and last. No explanation required in my book. You kicked ass (especially ours) and deserved.

But Ben - are you saying that there really is no such thing as sandbaggers in Intermediate and Advanced (PC issue aside)? In otherwords, are you saying "Rules are rules, if you're eligible, jump where you want and do so without being held up to "politcal" standards? (I'm not judging here, just trying to better understand your point to foster debate). If that is your point its certainly a legitimate one. Its the conclusion I've reached with respect to Advanced. Having given up on the PC fight, I've adopted a more positive attitude. Bring your best and let me see if I can beat you. This year - it didn't finish exactly like I had in mind, but the two-season long race sure was fun and I made some great friends in the process.

Steve
GT

[bliston 0]

are you saying that there really is no such thing as sandbaggers in Intermediate and Advanced (PC issue aside)? In otherwords, are you saying "Rules are rules, if you're eligible, jump where you want and do so without being held up to "politcal" standards? (I'm not judging here, just trying to better understand your point to foster debate). If that is your point its certainly a legitimate one. Its the conclusion I've reached with respect to Advanced. Having given up on the PC fight, I've adopted a more positive attitude. Bring your best and let me see if I can beat you. This year - it didn't finish exactly like I had in mind, but the two-season long race sure was fun and I made some great friends in the process.

Steve
GT

[BikerBabe 0]

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Or ask anyone that hired an Open level skydiver to jump in a lower class.

You know, I was on a PC team. And I agree with you. I even lobbied to go open that year. I was outvoted.

On the other hand, I didn't care about a medal that year. We finished 10th with an 11 average. How is that inappropriate for the Advanced class? We trained with a PC all year. For nationals we jumped with another world-class skydiver. We still weren't even close to medal contention.

I can see both sides now, having been on both sides.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[Reginald 0]

It's time to move up when you want to get beat by a better class of people.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[jmpwme 0]

Ben - did you say "voice as a USPA member"???

I agree with you that "rules are rules". We really don't have a choice in the matter anyway. If you want to compete, you compete under the rules. Its that simple. As I said above, bring your best, play fair, and let me see if I can beat you. I may not like the team that somebody has put together for any number of reasons, but I don't think any less of anybody as a competitor based on those reasons. I am, however, not shy about voicing opinions if asked.

But - Do we have a voice? The voices were screaming as loud as ever a few years ago over the PC issue, but the elected folks changed nothing, not even some of the inequities that exist in the system that wouldn't really effect the PC issues (ie: does it really make sense that two members of Defiance can't do an Advanced team, but Gary Beyer and Hammo can????). This is a simple change to the 25% rule and doesn't hamper the PC issue at all, but USPA has failed to react. I think the theory is good (its the american way), but the practice has fallen a bit short given how USPA committees and elections take place.

Then again, I voted for Bush and he only occassionaly does as I ask.

Bottom line, go compete and have fun. Thats what its all about anyway.

Steve
GT

[bliston 0]

I see your point. Maybe you're right that it's hard to effect change. When it boils down to it, I think we're on the same page, the "quite bitchin' and just train/compete hard" page. The Beyer/Hamo vs. Mass Defiance example carries weight, but then again when is the last time that 2 player coaches were on the same team in Int. or Adv.?

I just think that we can all use the reminder that it's important to voice concerns to the right people - so, write letters to USPA folk and keep doing it. Let em know if they want you vote for next year they had better at least voice your concern to the powers that be.

Ben

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[jmpwme 0]

Oh, just as an aside - GT just might have to move up so we can take another swipe at you guys!!! Or, since its the same draw - maybe we'll stay in Advanced and come up with nice side wager!

It seems that 4th to 1st is very popular.