It's almost time....World Meet 2006, who's it gonna be?

[Ron 10]

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I think you're clutching at straws here. You are saying that competition, meets and recognition doesn't IN GENERAL spur teams on to train more?

Nice swing and a miss. Competition, not just winning. You seem to think it is only winning that will get people to compete. You think that people compete only to go to the WM. But thats just bad logic given all the evidence.

Anyway its clear you just want to argue. Talbert speaks from a degree of experience you nor I have (Won a World Meet with a female on the same team)....Well you might be qualified, but you will not say who you are, no profile..ect. And when Chris says his two cents, you claim to have "sources" that agree with you that just HAPPEN to be more qualified than a guy that won a world meet with a female . As I see it there are only 6 people as qualified as Chris...So I think you are trolling, especially since your own words bite you:

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Clearly untrue and rather sexist IMHO. If men were to set a 'men's only' record it would almost certainly be bigger (for bigways) or faster (for 4way or 8way) than a women's record. This is simply because there are many more highly experienced male skydivers than there are highly experienced female ones. That is not to say that women are, as individuals, less talented than men, simply that, due to sheer numbers of female skydivers in relation to men, there are fewer......Well, it's certainly not MY mindset, which is exactly WHY I doubt the need for 'women only' records. Women are as 'capable' as men and should not need to be given 'special' status. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1077632#1077632

Yet when I say the SAME thing you claim I am "angry" and that I am wrong....Thats just funny.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[4wayFly 0]

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Really? Last year the US womans team did amost no training at all...In fact my "Not having a chance team did more training".

Your statement is an over generalization. Maybe SOME teams would not train as hard, but not all. And the fact we have so many teams in the mid teens goes to show that.

I think the US Women's Team must have trained quite hard to get to a 17 average in the first place though.

I think arguing that medals and meets doesn't drive more training and better scores is a bit lame.

[Alienangel 0]

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since your own words bite you:

That thread was about bigways, not world level 4 and 8way - although I would add I have changed some of my views since that post, in part due to discussions with people who have a bit more experience than I do. I reserve the right to change my mind back again if compelling evidence leads me to do so.

And even if it is the lack of NUMBERS of females that is keeping the actual level of performance lower, it is still lower - we don't know why, whether it is innate and physical (i.e. muscle) or sheer numbers. Since we don't know why, and since women's teams consistently underperform, there is a very strong case for the female category, as in all other sports in the world.

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Anyway its clear you just want to argue.

No I just don't agree with you, sorry about that.

[Alienangel 0]

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Competition, not just winning

Hence the value of a COMPETITION among the top female teams in the world, then?

[Ron 10]

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I think the US Women's Team must have trained quite hard to get to a 17 average in the first place though.

At last years nationals (The one they had to win to go to the WM) they did a 15.4. They also did about 150-160 training jumps. So that shows that even though they wanted to go to the WM, they didn't train much at all.

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I think arguing that medals and meets doesn't drive more training and better scores is a bit lame.

Tell that to the 10 other teams in Open that had no chance of winning the Nationals and going to the WM. Including 4 guest teams that had no way to win at all.

Or the 14 in Advanced, with 2 guest teams and no chance to got to the WM.

Or Intermediate with 9 guest teams and 42 teams.

To claim it is only the medals that make people compete is myopic, and frankly silly.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Hence the value of a COMPETITION among the top female teams in the world, then?

Not really.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Since we don't know why, and since women's teams consistently underperform, there is a very strong case for the female category, as in all other sports in the world.

The key being "Team" and not skydiver. There are no really high level female teams since the really good talent is spread out due to the lack of NUMBER of females that jump.

The same argument could be used to show why there are less female AFF Instructors, less Female PRO rated jumpers, less female Pro canopy pilots...ect. Unless you want to claim that men are just better suited for all of that than women?

Not something I agree with personally.

Anyway I'm over this...You say women can't compete at that level do to strength, yet we have a World Champion who is female and several national champs that are female.

A guy that Won a World Meet with a female tells you that sex does not matter, yet you have MORE qualified people who say other wise???? Unless they were on the 04 WM team they are by definition less qualified than Talbert.

I'd love to discuss this, but your logic makes no sense at all, and I don't see the need to continue with a person with no name. Provide some identity info, and some good logic and we can continue. Otherwise C-Ya.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[4wayFly 0]

No women in the top teams in the backpiece though, in the history of the sport, I think. Supports the strength theory, unless you think its coincidence.

(4-way nerd moment coming up)

Eliana - point
Natasha - point
Ditter - point
Melanie Curtis - point
Dawn - Outside Center
Arianne - Outside Center
Lise - Outside Center
Nina - Outside Center
Christy Frikken - Outside Center

Sorry to anyone Ive missed out!

[Alienangel 0]

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A guy that Won a World Meet with a female tells you that sex does not matter, yet you have MORE qualified people who say other wise????

What do you think Eliana and Ditta would say about having a Female Category, since they both competed in it?

I'm not going to put words in people's mouths since it is in general only saddos like you and me who waste such vast amounts of webspace on anal discussions like this.

Ron you are a worthy adversary, but still, I don't agree with you

And by the way, you said you were done with this several days ago, and yet, here we are....

[Ron 10]

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No women in the top teams in the backpiece though, in the history of the sport, I think. Supports the strength theory, unless you think its coincidence.

I think to claim that the back piece has a need for "strength" more than any other slot...Is false. In fact OC is one of the hardest slots in 4way IMO.

Could it be that the same logic that for years prevented females from being selected on the top teams is at work? I mean 8 years ago some thought FX had no shot and were crazy since they had a female. That wall was broken down and now 5 national teams have a women on them and a woman is a WORLD CHAMPION. Given time the real fact that good skydivers are just good skydivers will prevail. ALL of the evidence is pointing to the fact that women are just as able as any man in skydiving.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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What do you think Eliana and Ditta would say about having a Female Category, since they both competed in it?

And you are??????

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Alienangel 0]

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5 national teams have a women on them and a woman is a WORLD CHAMPION

...who came to that position having been on the US Women's team and competed in the Female Category...

Anyway I thought you said you were over this?

We must agree to disagree, Ron.

I think top level 4way involves some degree of strength - you don't.

I think the women's category improves competition, creates a greater range of role models and helps to grow the sport in many ways - you don't.

I think that skydiving will be taken more seriously as a sport by the rest of the world if it keeps a Female Class - like every other sport out there - you don't.

That's about it, isn't it? It can't really be proven one way or another.

Why does it bug you so much? Are you not in your heart of hearts a little envious, that, while you have been plugging away at this game for years now, female teams can achieve world level recognition with a relatively poxy 15, 16 or 17 average?

[Alienangel 0]

Tail is known as a very aggressive, physical slot and I think you're just disagreeing because that fact contradicts your position in relation to the Women's Class.

[lauras 0]

Dude, I'm starting to think you & Alienangel are one & the same...playing devil's advocate mmmaybe?

[pr0ject42 0]

Actually Eliana is Tail or rear inside (not too up on my 8-way stuff) on the 8-way team and she started out as a tail on the older Airspeed stuff.

[Ron 10]

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Tail is known as a very aggressive, physical slot and I think you're just disagreeing because that fact contradicts your position in relation to the Women's Class

Again...Who are you and why are you hiding?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Why does it bug you so much? Are you not in your heart of hearts a little envious, that, while you have been plugging away at this game for years now, female teams can achieve world level recognition with a relatively poxy 15, 16 or 17 average?

I don't think it is needed. I think it is a shame that people think women can not compete at the same level as men. And that is proven wrong over and over since Dawn English.

I am not envious of a medal. A medal for a 17 is not the same as a medal for a 20+. It is about the performance, not the trinket.

Why do you defend it so much? Do you think it is your only shot at "glory"?

Here is the thing, I respect people who try and earn a level of skill no matter what sex they are. I don't look at Natasha or Eliana, Ditta, ect and think, "They pretty good for a girl." I look at them and think. "They are good."

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Anyway I thought you said you were over this?

I must admit I find it interesting how much you claim to know, but hide your identity. Are you afraid to stand beside your words in the open?

I am done...As long as you will only hide, I will consider you to be nothing more than a troll.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Alienangel 0]

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Actually Eliana is Tail or rear inside (not too up on my 8-way stuff) on the 8-way team and she started out as a tail on the older Airspeed stuff.

But on the 4way she is now point.

[Alienangel 0]

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I am not envious of a medal. A medal for a 17 is not the same as a medal for a 20+. It is about the performance, not the trinket.

I agree. But maybe you are envious of the recognition...not the trinket...

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how much you claim to know

You were the one who started saying 'I know a little about 4way and have done a 15+ over 10 rounds' blah blah, not me...

I don't share some of your opinions but I don't hold myself up as the Oracle of skydiving...Do I have to present credentials before I can disagree with you?

[Ron 10]

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I agree. But maybe you are envious of the recognition...not the trinket...

Nope..Care to answer if you are holding onto it so tight since it may be your only chance at glory?

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You were the one who started saying 'I know a little about 4way and have done a 15+ over 10 rounds' blah blah, not me...

But you make claims that people don't know how hard it is...Since that would mean you DO...Then maybe you should not hide?

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I don't share some of your opinions but I don't hold myself up as the Oracle of skydiving...Do I have to present credentials before I can disagree with you?

Nope but when you make claims, it helps to back them up with more than just talk.

For example:

AA: The crux here is the use of the word 'besides'.
Strength. For blocks

Well do you have any experience, or are you just talking?

AA: Doing a 21, 22, 23 average is NOT the same as doing a 15, 16, 17 .

And you know how? Brian Johnson told me that it was easier than he thought to do a 20. How do you know?

AA: I said skydiving at a 21+ has a lot to do with muscle.

And you know this how? Ever done a 21+?

AA: The point slot is typically more of a precision solo-flying slot

And you know this HOW?

AA: Tail is known as a very aggressive, physical slot

You know this how? You claimed to be a point?

AA: Yes I know who you are, I also know a little about 4-way and disagree with you.

Right there you claim to be an "Oracle" of skydiving...Yet you still hide?

Then you say AA: "we are talking about the cutting edge of the sport, at a 21, 22, 23, 24. I haven't been there, nor have you, and I am sure there are those better qualified than us to get on the bandwagon. "

And then when one does, you discount it....TOO FUNNY!

You make claims but refuse to say who you are, or how you got your information. You ask for, then discount any information that does not fit into your world...all the time hiding.

You have been asked to say who you are, but you still hide and argue.

A little credability goes a long way. You make alot of claims about what you know. So who are you so we can see if you know what you are talking about?

Or would you rather troll?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skykittykat 0]

The debate between Ron and Alienangel has been most entertaining.

IMHO Ron is winning as Alienangel's reply to Chris Talbot's post came across as disagreeing with what he said even though what he posted was the most QUALIFIED opinion of anyone on this thread (Chris being a world champ). Unless, of course, Aliengangel is a World Champ in 4 or 8-way skydiving.

This thread has been taken over with the debate of a need for a Women's class or not (I am guilty of doing the same!!!!) rather than WHO is going to win at the World Meet.

What are people's predictions?

Liz
LizBits on www.omniskore.com returns to reporting all the live action from the World Meet (RW and Artistic events)

[4wayFly 0]

4way Open - Fire, Sinapsi, Panthers
8way - Airspeed, French, Russians
4way Female - French, Russians, UK or USA

[Alienangel 0]

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Then you say AA: "we are talking about the cutting edge of the sport, at a 21, 22, 23, 24. I haven't been there, nor have you, and I am sure there are those better qualified than us to get on the bandwagon. "

And then when one does, you discount it....TOO FUNNY!

I am always interested to hear the views of those better qualified than us on this subject (as I already said). It's a topic which has been close to my heart for some time and by no means do I 'discount' his views, in fact I'll take them into consideration and I always reserve the right to change my mind. As yet I don't concur with Chris, even though I do accept he is better qualified than I am to make an assessment. I actually said;

'I know people with averages just as big as yours (and more jumps) who disagree with that view. However it's always interesting to hear a new opinion.

I would also be interested to know what you think getting rid of the Female Category would actually achieve for the benefit of the sport.'

He is yet to reply to that question, although it wasn't intended to be rhetorical.

I do know people of equal status in the sport who do not share Chris's opinion. Since this has been on my mind for some time, I've asked around rather than pulling it out of my butt, regardless of what you want to imply, Ron. If they want to add their comments I'm sure they will. Unfortunately for my side of the fence however, most senior players don't waste their time getting embroiled in tit-for-tat arguments between a couple of dz.commers with too much time on their hands, and I have no plans to interrupt their busy schedules to garner support.

Sorry if this is driving you crazy, Ron. Next time you (or anyone else) asks my views on the matter in person I'll tell you exactly what I think, but I prefer not to attach my name to a web discussion, it can bite you on the ass for all the wrong reasons, as I'm sure you know.

As it stands I'm glad to have had this friendly chat with you, it has been most interesting. You are just like a little terrier with a bone, always searching for that final, elusive piece of flesh.

You haven't changed my mind quite yet, but do feel free to keep on gnawing

Ciao.

[Alienangel 0]

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Care to answer if you are holding onto it so tight since it may be your only chance at glory?

Er, nope, far from it actually.

[TalbertGK4 0]

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He is yet to reply to that question, although it wasn't intended to be rhetorical.

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I never said I thought eliminating the womens class would benefit the sport. I simply said I agree w/ Ron's point of view on the womens class being un-necassary

I did not agree with the womens class when it wast started and dont now, it has nothing to do with what I think will benefit the sport.

On a lighter note the camera guy for Team Paraclete had a malfunction today. Nothing crazy, just lines twists however he has just purchased an HD video camera so it may be the first HD captured cut-away! He should have it posted wherever you are supposed to post that sort of thing shortly.

OK Ok I know its lame, its hot and I am tired.

I am going to get fat! Oh yeah and thanks to the guy who sent me the PM on how to do the fancy shmancy in repy to thing!

Ever come to Raeford I will buy you a can of Schlitz

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