Is it just me....

[GQ_jumper 4]

...or does a team that can score a 16.3 average belong in a class a bit higher than rookie? Check the leaderboard on the NSL website.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[jmpwme 0]

That is one nice skydive. I might be wrong, but it appears that the 35 second score was 16 and that the 24 was in 45ish seconds. Does the rookie class have different working time? Are U.S. and UK different on these points?

Still, all those rookie UK teams are certainly worthy of jumping in the AA class, nevermind A or rookie. Nice skydiving to them!!!

[[Edited to include - Ok, I'm an idiot - Nevermind the working time stuff, its 35 seconds]]

Steve
GT

[HeatherB 0]

I just looked at it for the hell of it. Did you take into consideration that their exit didn't take place until 10 seconds into the video? Looks like 24 points in 35 seconds to me.

[jmpwme 0]

Well, sure looks like you're right on that. I'm an idiot. I looked at the clock to see when they exited, then forgot to subtract it out at the end. DUH. I was told there would be no math.

I stand corrected!

That makes it an even better skydive. Why are they in rookie class???

[4wayFly 0]

But it is a random-only draw for Rookies so not exactly a real average...

[Nick 0]

Think what we're seeing here is the effect of the tunnel.

If you looked at 100%'s average from last year they were running at 5.8 through the season which put them in the middle of the table, from what I understand they've done tunnel time since then which has improved their average dramatically.

It's difficult at the start of the seaon to decide which class you want to compete in and what your going to build your training plan around (consider if one year you had a 5.8 ave, would you say that your good enough to move up 2 classes the next year before you started your training).

Obviously there are a number of changes where the jump number limits have been removed for all classes which leave it up to the competitors to decide where they fit, there has also been the (effectively) split of the the intermediate class into A and AA. I'm sure it's going to take a little time for things to bed down, but once it has it'll be a more realistic system.

Nick
Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW!

[Dazzle 0]

Their score in the first comp of the year was 10.8 so not outrageous (I think that had a really bad camera NJ 6 pts of so in round 1)

I'd guess they just picked a class that was acceptable to them at the start of the year and then with the tunnels available to them have progressed.

One thing that I don't get when looking at the NSL scores is why teams enter higher classifications and then score 4s or 5s - would they not be better entering a lower classification and learning more from the simpler dives?

[GQ_jumper 4]

One thing that I don't get when looking at the NSL scores is why teams enter higher classifications and then score 4s or 5s - would they not be better entering a lower classification and learning more from the simpler dives?

Quote

Like was mentioned earlier the rookie class is all random, I don't care how good your team is at all randoms you are going to lose points off your average when you start turning blocks. But scoring a 4 or 5 average when you firt move into A or AA class isn't all that bad, it's a pretty good starting point.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

• Quote

[Dougiefresh 0]

This kind of stuff irks me. Rookie class is there to learn how to exit and what 4-way is all about. There is no reason you should be getting above a 5 average. If you are, then move up a class and keep learning. Just smashing out points as fast as you can is not challenging, and you're wasting money on video and meet fees when you could be actually competing, rather than just beating on the newbies. If these guys don't at least try some blocks it's just weak. They obviously have the important parts of rookie class figured out -- fall rate, centering the skydive, and clean exits.

My team was rookie last year. We worked our way up to a blistering average of... 2. We moved up anyway, because we figured our learning curve would be higher. We now have an average of 4.9 in A class. So yes, we're learning faster, as well as more -- blocks and other exits besides the 4 from Rookie class last year.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

[Nick 0]

But it could be asked, if your getting a low average (sub 5) can you say that you really know how to exit (considering that up until now there were only 4 exits in rookie class) or are you really able to fly relative for the whole of the skydive (after all flying relative it what RW is all about)?

Surely your better off setting a strong foundation to build upon rather than moving up as quickely as possible.


It's got to be said that there is much to be discussed on this point and no one person will come up with the answer, the BPA tried with the jump number limits but the tunnels put paid to that.

Nick
Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW!

[Dougiefresh 0]

Quote

But it could be asked, if your getting a low average (sub 5) can you say that you really know how to exit (considering that up until now there were only 4 exits in rookie class) or are you really able to fly relative for the whole of the skydive (after all flying relative it what RW is all about)?

Surely your better off setting a strong foundation to build upon rather than moving up as quickely as possible.


It's got to be said that there is much to be discussed on this point and no one person will come up with the answer, the BPA tried with the jump number limits but the tunnels put paid to that.

I am going from the assumption that the point is not to win, but to learn and become a better skydiver. You're not going for national gold in Rookie or A class, you're learning how to fly so that when you get to AA and AAA you can really compete. *edit: I see now that there is a competition class for UK nationals in all levels. my bad*

I can see spending a couple of seasons in A to get fast enough to be competitive. But being scorching in Rookie is like a pro ball player kicking ass in the farm leagues. What's the point, other than to stroke your own ego?

The fact that there is competition at 10+ in the UK Rookie leagues is kind of nuts to me. Especially considering that the A class scores are comparable to the U.S.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

[Dazzle 0]

But the teams in Rookie that are scoring well are new. JCB from our dropzone consists of a bunch of 100 jump jumpers (less when they started) with a player coach. tunnel training allows them to fly and score well, 10+ in the 1 comp they've done.

Whats the point of going and flying complicated blocks before you can fly the randoms well?

What are the teams that start the year out in rookie, get better throughout the year and start scoring 10+. Throw their season away and 'compete' in a higher class that they haven't trained for?

These 10+ teams will be stepping up next year and improving the competition at the higher levels next year.

[Dougiefresh 0]

Quote

But the teams in Rookie that are scoring well are new. JCB from our dropzone consists of a bunch of 100 jump jumpers (less when they started) with a player coach. tunnel training allows them to fly and score well, 10+ in the 1 comp they've done.

Whats the point of going and flying complicated blocks before you can fly the randoms well?

What are the teams that start the year out in rookie, get better throughout the year and start scoring 10+. Throw their season away and 'compete' in a higher class that they haven't trained for?

These 10+ teams will be stepping up next year and improving the competition at the higher levels next year.

If this is true, and they're training hard enough to get 10+, they can throw a few blocks in during tunnel training. My point is that 10+ defeats the purpose of having a rookie class -- to start from scratch and learn the randoms. Obviously these teams have, so move up already. And don't get me started on player coaches.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

[druspork 0]

Yep

There will be some challenges to the UK system now.

BUT - your view of what the divisions are for is US-centric. The UK categories possibly need further thought but our background is different.

In effect the US "juniors" was A. The UK juniors was Novice, but with 12 randoms only and including all exits. To pull things together, US now does all the exits and we do all the randoms.

The difference in attitude is the US novice was "pre-juniors". For us: firstly entry into a division was based solely on jump numbers (Juniors had a max 900 jumps after A license for three slots); Secondly PCs were encouraged in all divisions (hence unlimited jump numbers for one slot). PCs tended not to happen after juniors and anyway a UK PC was not the same as a US PC. We never had the politics on PCs that you did - Pcs were encouraged.

Also any decent team in juniors would want to break that 10 point ave barrier before going up to intermediate (halfway between A and AA).

Nothing wrong with this. But as we have merged with the NSL system, and we ditched jump numbers (which became irrelevant with local tunnels), and we have teams that are seriously training even in novice class... it's fair to say it's out of step with NSL.

Dont blame the team. And no doubt at the season end their will be some consideration of our system. Be patient, we are changing to match you guys, there's a mis-match to be talked through.

The team performance was outstanding - way to go guys!

Dru

[Fast 0]

All I can say is that 100% doesn't look anything like ANY rookie team I have ever seen in the US. I competed in A class and we weren't anywhere NEAR that good.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[SpinDoctor 0]

Yes, it's just you.

Like Dru and one or two others have mentioned, the UK has recently changed their categories to fit in with the ESL/NSL.

Our categories were based solely on jump numbers;
Junior: 900 total for 3 - plus 1 wildcard
Intermediate: 1800 total for 3 jumpers, plus 1 w/c
Senior: Anything else.

This is the first season that we've got the 4 NSL / ESL catagories, so it's entirely likely that the 'jump number' idea is still used as an unwritten 'rule of thumb'. Maybe there is some disparity between the US version of rookie and the UK version, but I think they're in the right category.

When I was in junior, I was turning a 12.75 average, and this was pretty standard at the time, and seems to have carried on now.

People that want to progress and compete, using coaches and windtunnels etc will reap the rewards. Standards will rise as a result. This is what seems to be happening now.

I, personally, am very happy to see the likes of 100% doing so well, and in my opinion, they are junior jumpers. They and teams like them, have only been jumping a couple of years and only recently started doing 4 way. They have trained hard and are reaping the rewards.

Corny tag line alert:
FS is alive and well in the UK

Regards, Phil

-----------------------
Connextion: British 8 Way Team
www.bodyflight.co.uk
-----------------------

[GQ_jumper 4]

Our categories were based solely on jump numbers;
Junior: 900 total for 3 - plus 1 wildcard
Intermediate: 1800 total for 3 jumpers, plus 1 w/c
Senior: Anything else.

Quote

that's something I didn't know, are those jump numbers a cumulative total for the whole team or per individual?

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

• Quote

[druspork 0]

The jump numbers were cumulative between three members and counted from AFTER you achieved FS1 (BPA approval to jump with others tested by a min 4 point 4-w with experienced guys).

Jump numbers as a limit dont work for all sorts of reasons, so they were ditched when we shifted to match the ESL (NSL) categories.

We still have an obvious misfit, but just realise that this has been earned by the team. In fact by all the UK junior teams. Hey, someone had to shake the system, and way to go 100%, what a way to shake it.

Why do something by halves.

Dru