f1freak 0 #101 February 21, 2003 I SO AGREE....... I just dont want to keep hurting students by making them learn under canopies that will not teach them real flight.... HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #102 February 21, 2003 We are all students. I can't make a mistake on my Jedei that I could on my Cobalt. Every new canopy and every new size flies totally different and even students need to learn that. Guess what... I know a LOT of people at my DZ that don't load their canopies over 1.1 or 1.2 and they have more jumps them most the people posting to this fourm. Not all students need to be pushed to down size right away. I'd rather see jumpers start on a Sabre at .8:1 then on a Sabre at 1:1. I know some students I would'nt want to put on a 1:1 canopy till they master the larger canopy. Not every student needs to be pushed to downsize.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #103 February 21, 2003 what's wrond with the "canopy progression" theory? i've seen jumpers get out of the sport for a while, have new gear when they come back, downsized 15-20^ ft. of canopy and flying a semi-elipitical at that, and the landings are not pretty, some of them have been hideous. in my opinion you want your student on a very conservative, docile and very forgiving canopy. i trained on Sabres, got my own rig and flew Triathlons, Hornet, Cobalt and now a Heatwave. so i went from a 9 cell as a student, 7 cell to start out with, then a 9 cell Hornet (best canopy i ever owned) now the Heatwave. i also demoed a ton of canopies during all of these transitions. so it is my belief that we need to start them out on a square ram air, then progress to a semi-elipitical, then a elipitical, then a comp model. just my thoughts on the matter. enough people get seriously injured, or even killed on conservative squares early on in their training, an elipitical is out of the question. IMHO--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #104 February 21, 2003 How many do you want to see starting on a manta 289.... I am so not saying we load the canopies up crazy..... I am saying we give them what they will be flying as "Beginners".... Thats all i am saying.... HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #105 February 21, 2003 Hey, i so agree with you.......... I know the students now could be so far ahead of where we are in the same amount of timeHAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #106 February 21, 2003 QuoteI am saying we give them what they will be flying as "Beginners".... so it is your assumption that all beginners will be flying elipitical canopies? would you agree that in the event of an off DZ landing in a tight landing area you would rather have your student under a lightly loaded Triathlon, Manta than a crossfire, or a Hornet, Heatwave,Cobalt? another aspect that must be considered if a student starts out on a "lightly loaded elipitical" at .08:1:1, then progress into an elipitical with a wing of 1:2:1, then maybe a 1:5:1, how is starting them out at a light wing load, then progressing them to a higher wing going to be helpful to the student? you said start them out with what they'll be flying anyway, so should we start them out on an elipitical at a 1:2:1? i don't buy it.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #107 February 21, 2003 Have i said one time a student be flying an elliptical????? well not yet i havent... It will be coming soon i bet..... What i am saying is TEACH them You dont see our HS students being taught Lattin instead of english just because that's where it came from.... no we teach english..... we need to teach canopy flight, and Yea.... Slam it into the heads of students "if you fuck up.... you're gonna be messed up..... so learn now before you get coocky......"HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #108 February 21, 2003 >How many do you want to see starting on a manta 289.... As many as possible at most DZ's. I've seen way too many students think 25 feet is flare altitude to say to have their first 5 jumps by on something thats too responsive. At the few DZ's that do devote hours and hours to canopy flight before the first post tandem jump they can get by with a slightly more responsive canopy but for the majority of your first AFF, IAD and SL jumpers being a big slow barge is just what keeps them alive.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #109 February 21, 2003 now really... if we spent half as much time on canopy control as altitude awareness or body position, we would see better piloting by students...HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #110 February 21, 2003 QuoteWhat i'm saying is that elliptical and semi-elliptical canopys are going to be the norm.... Just like squares, ZP..... So let's teach new jumpers to fly what they will be flying.... not directly, but you did elude or suggest it with this statement.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #111 February 21, 2003 QuoteHave i said one time a student be flying an elliptical????? I dunno what thread you're reading, but I'm reading one called "Cobalt Canopies", which seems to me, is talking about the Atair Cobalt, one which IS fully eliptical. Moreover, it's a fully eliptical canopy (biggest size, 170) who's manufactuer is on the recored HERE, preaching its use as a STUDENT, FIRST JUMP canopy. And you're coming to his defence, whether you know it or not. Context, dear F1... Context! _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #112 February 21, 2003 I seam to remember seem to remember Dan saying something about beginners...... and when i refer to the cobalt it is the beginner that i am talking about in this thread....HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #113 February 21, 2003 So you do think beginners should jump fully eliptical canopies? Stilettos? Crossfires? Heatwaves? Cobalts? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #114 February 21, 2003 LMAO..... WTF.... I am saying that at a "Reasonable" wingloading and with proper training Yes a beginner can fly a fully elliptical canopy.... now i cant speak on the heatwave or crossfire.... i didnt fly them till i had quite a few jumps, but the stiletto.... Hell yeah.... lightly loaded..... with the right training....HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #115 February 21, 2003 I have just read this thread until now, but would like to share a few thoughts. We have kinda strayed from the Cobalt line of thought, which until new answers are introduced is fine. I think Atair is at a crossroads, I think they have some neat ideas, but the need to tweak some things. Supposedly, the canopies were the absolute best a few years ago, and it has been proven that they have at least some inconsistancy. And yes I have jumped a Cobalt...a 170 infact. My thoughts: A cobalt or any other semi elliptical is not a good student canopy. They are just too responsive. As an instructor you want to give your students the chance to make more than one mistake and walk away. Is that encouraging bad habits? no. It is being intelligent to know that students will make mistakes and caring for them enough to lessen the consequences of the mistakes. f1freak: you are absolutely right about teaching them. Canopy control is lacking as a whole in the student community I feel. But I think you have the cart before the horse. By admitting that canopy control is lacking, we are all essentially saying that the gear is already ahead of training, ie students are coming of student status without the necessary skills to pilot canopies effectively. So why should we advance gear more? I feel we should not...we should advance training more. You are absolutely right, students should learn about ellipticals, but you must consider timing. You infer that to learn about it, it must be done in the first 20 jumps. I feel that student progression should last much longer. We should not let students just walk away after level 8s, etc. The coaching should continue, perhaps with differnt tracks, like majors in college. If you want to freefly seek out the freefly coach. If you want to swoop, seek out the canopy coach. There is too much to absorb in training as it is...it needs to get longer not shorter. You equate the difference between f-111 and ZP to the difference between square and ellip. I don't think they are equal. I am all for training on ZP. My student progression from day one was on a Sabre..266, 233, 210. On jump no. 11 I was flying a 210 at a wing loading of 1:1. Some people thought it was radical, my JM and DZO did not and felt comfortable with my position. It varies from student to student. But progression through smaller ZP squares is totally different than semi-ellip or ellip. In the beginning students are oblivious to deployment body position, they are uncertain of altitude under canopy, hell they are not quite sure where to flare yet. Just because you tell them to be will not make them either. Skydiving is like riding a motorcycle, driving a car, or calculus. It takes practice. There are just too many variables to assimiliate at once. You must use building blocks. The primary point of student status is to teach them to save their own life. That involves exiting, dealing with malfunctions, and landing without getting injured. That involves enough contingencies. You are disagreeing with a lack of training, and I totally agree with you, but beg the question "when"? We cannot cram any more information into student status. QuoteYou dont see our HS students being taught Lattin instead of english just because that's where it came from.... no we teach english..... we need to teach canopy flight, and Yea.... Slam it into the heads of students "if you fuck up.... you're gonna be messed up..... so learn now before you get coocky......" That is just not realistic. We are not putting students out on rounds, and I dont think anyone would think it would be safer. Squares are not that different from ellipticals. Students learn to check their 3-rings, examine toggle control range, is it square, stable, steerable, etc, etc. Just because you make them understand they will get hurt, does not stop them from doing it. You think the majority of students get hurt because they are cocky? NO, they are just not practiced skydivers yet. You ever seen a student get in line twists because they did not know their body position was bad? You ever seen a student who became uncertain right before landing and did not flare properly? There are many more, but would you rather have those students on squares or ellips? Because personally I am glad they are on squares. Radio training, very good idea. Ever had a student misunderstand instructions under canopy or not respond? Most canopies that 'we' fly just are not forgiving enough for students. The mistakes will happen, whether you will them to learn or not. And when they do, it would be nothing less than negligance on our parts as mentors, instructors, friends, etc not to have done everything to minimize the consequences. As an anology, would you teach CRW to students? Why not? Because their canopy skills are not yet sufficient. You get the control, then you apply it and build on it. High performance canopies take no less precision than CRW. Furthermore, I do not think there will be a massive replacement of square canopies any time in the near future. They provide stable learning platforms. And until students are positive they know how to react to malfunctions of many sorts, including traffic patter avoidance, I see no reason to give them more to concentrate on. Instructors should be lengthening the downsize curve, not shortening it. Their is no finish line, that we need to get to. Would you give your 16 year old a Vette? By the way, I only met HooknSwoop once, but I have read some of his stuff. He is squared away. He flys a pocket rocket, not a Manta, so if is from the swooping camp and says "Caution" it is something to consider. If you want a bigger name read JC Colclasure's stuff. He urges you to start big and squeeze all the performance out of your canopy before moving down. I have learned all front risers manuevers on a Sabre 210 at 1:1. The technique is fundamentally the same, however the recovery arc, etc is much safer. You can learn all you need under a square. Then when you know it in your sleep, build on it, go smaller, and do exactly what you advocate...start conservative again and never stop training.-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #116 February 21, 2003 QuoteHave i said one time a student be flying an elliptical????? you have now for sure QuoteYes a beginner can fly a fully elliptical canopy.... how do you know this? what data are you basing your remarks on? a remark like this certainly warrants some insight.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZag 0 #117 February 21, 2003 I haven't made a jump in the last 10-12 months, just to let folks know that I'm not current. At 255 lbs. exit weight, I don't think I'll be doing a recurrency jump with my NITRO 150(a little PR perhaps)? What really strikes me, is the latent/real ability of manufacturers driving or influencing the dynamics of the sport. Some canopy mfg's have been around for a long time, should I say from the beginning, and others have entered the "Market" at some later stage. The lack of docile student canopies in a product line should not compel a mfg. to re-invent high performance airfoils, ie. relabeling them as student or beginner canopies. This is not the way to gain market share! Many of us, but by all means not the majority, are guilty of downsizing to smaller or higher performing airfoils sooner than later. We were lucky/gifted enough to survive the learning curve that our decisions confronted us with. I don't want to imply that we are done learning, or braking bones, let alone giving up the ghost! Roger(Clemens) Nelson from Skydive Chicago threw the sport a curve ball. We now have a almost universally accepted view, that B.O.C. is the way to go, rather than to transition from R.O.L. to B.O.C. Did he not also pioneer (or at least embed) the idea in our sport, that it is OK to use ZP canopies for students. Not every dropzone is ready to share that view, for whatever reason. My point is, that innovation in the art of teaching students and the use of equipment is in the hands of each individual dropzone and their staff, not a decision to be made by mfg's. Mfg's are the bones in this sport. Almost without exception, do they provide us with safe equipment which is continually being upgraded to make the sport safer. It is also to be expected that mfg's will build products that continually push the limits of what is possible! It is a symbiotic relationship, not a parasitic one. USPA's and foreign skydiving associations' role is to facilitate or encourage/coordinate a sane and safe policy. Truth in advertisement is important, so when it comes down to the nitty gritty of this thread, hats off to those, that question "authority". Ziggy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #118 February 21, 2003 Quotewhat's wrong with the "canopy progression" theory? i've seen jumpers get out of the sport for a while, have new gear when they come back, downsized 15-20^ ft. of canopy and flying a semi-elipitical at that, and the landings are not pretty Nothing is wrong with it. I'm all for it. I just don't think it needs to start in the 288 range for the majority of jumpers. Quotesome of them have been hideous. in my opinion you want your student on a very conservative, docile and very forgiving canopy. Agreed. So put a non collapsible PC, slider and dacron lines on a sabre and lower the brakes a bit and you're got a much more forgiving canopy for a given wingloading. Then their "transition" off of student could be something of the same size and they'll see an immediate performance boost, while not actually decreasing the fabric above their heads. Quote i trained on Sabres me too! so we're in agreement! I'm NOT saying put them on cobalts or stilettos....I know this is in the cobalt thread, but i'm chiming in in favor of more modern equipment than many DZs seem to provide, not cobalts specifically. In general, i'd rather see sabres/safires.De-tune them as stated above and you have quite the docile canopy that's not as over-bearing as a Manta. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #119 February 21, 2003 Quoteah... so we should teach them early on that they can do a full-on toggle turn low and get away with it? No but you prepare for it. Or it could happen this way. 2 students at 100 feet are cut off. The student trained on the sabre has never been cut off before. He panics, freezes and looks hard to one side and pulls the toggle w/o realizing what he is doing (because he's never been up shits creek before.) Im not saying stunt a students learning ability. Just as you do simple manuevers in freefall before you do flips and tracking, you teach them simple basics (like survival skills and how to determine what ANY canopy will let them get away with) before they learn all the finer points of being a canopy pilot. I know when i see a student in the air I give them more space than anyone because they are already overloaded. My girlfriend (killerkimmy here) had a long student progression and her first 75 os so jumps were strechted out over a decent amout of time. In that time she was trained on navigators and jumped everything from spectres to sabres to safires back to sabres of different sizes. She treated every canopy as if it would kill her somehow unless she learned all its flight charicteristics. She did brake turns in her sleep. It was no magic formula with her, she was just informed and hungry to learn all she could from all her canopies, old and new designs. She can tell you where almost every canopy was flying on an otter load with out her being distracted from safely piloting her canopy. I consider her an extremely safe and knowledgeable pilot. She still has tons to learn and she is excited to do it on every jump. We all know students safety comes first. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #120 February 21, 2003 Quotelike survival skills and how to determine what ANY canopy will let them get away with) exactly.. and not ANY canopy will let you get away with yanking on a toggtle when you're low. Most wont. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #121 February 21, 2003 exactly.. and not ANY canopy will let you get away with yanking on a toggtle when you're low. Most wont. *** Well that can be taught in the classroom. You dont have to put them on a canopy that could hurt them and say" dont do that or you'll die." Put them on a more forgiving canopy and say" dont do that or you'll die!" When it is seen that they wont then transistion them over to something that is more inline with what they will want to sly after student status. I also know plenty of people I went through aff with that still fly sabres. Not everyone has to go elliptical (or semi or tapered or whatever you want to call the aspect of performance). If they want to they are more than welcome to learn about the individual traits and treat them with respect. Are the first 5 jumps really gonna throw of the learning curve and make the rest of their jumping career horrible? Thats just insane. I plan on jumping forever. My first 5 out of 5000 or 50,000 wont make a shit of difference (but it could have saved my ass) Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #122 February 21, 2003 Travis...You are wrong. Students do not need an elliptical wing. Period. They have to worry about so much stuff, I ma not planning on adding a twitchy opening, twitchy flying canopy....At least not until they have the basics down... You can teach a person all day long. But the only thing that will make a person safe is experience. Students don't have any..... Just like you don't teach headdown on level 2....You should not be giving students elliptical canopies. They will grow into them, and when they are ready for them. THEN give them one. I base this of off almost 10 years...and 7 years teaching students. And FWIW...I like small canopies. I just don't like students, or even beginers on them...Its not safe. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gale 0 #123 February 21, 2003 I'm an exceptionally new skydiver, so my opinion means almost nothing....but here it is anyway... I started on Mantas. It's a really good thing because I think I might be broken right now if I hadn't of. I'm not what one might call a "natural" at canopy flying - in fact I would say I'm behind the curve. So what about me? I doubt anyone in their right mind would put me on an elliptical. I personally think there should definately be a large cushion when you're learing becuase you never know when you're going to run into a student like me. And yes, I'm jumping my own gear now, a Triathalon. The transition really wasn't hard, I don't think. I'm happy to put off transitioning to something else until I'm good and ready, and I'm really glad my instructors didn't try to make that at jump 15 or something. But like I said, what do I know? GaleI'm drowning...so come inside Welcome to my...dirty mind Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #124 February 21, 2003 Quote what do I know? I've been trying to stay away from this thread (to avoid getting myself into trouble) as I'm sure to many I too fall into the "what do I know category". But I find myself with some spare change to hopefully contribute to the conversation. Having never flown a fully elliptical canopy, so I don't really know what sort of trouble/benefits I could find myself in if I was to fly one right now. I do know that by reading Atair's marketing material about the Cobalt and by reading what many people who have flown the Cobalt say, my impressions are that the Cobalt is prone to having a rough opening shock if the skydiver's body position is not right come pull time. But also that the Cobalt is a canopy which has a reputation of being a canopy with a lot of flare (obviously by a canopy pilot who knows what they are doing). Should a student/beginner/intermediate canopy pilot be flying an elliptical canopy? One would think that the answer would be obvious. NO!!! But opinions are like assholes, every one has one, including myself. Do I want to fly an elliptical canopy? Hell ya, but from what I've read and from what I've talked to others about, it's obvious the better strategy would be to not rush myself into the elliptical scene and learn how to fly my semi-elliptical Sabre2 canopy first. Should students be allowed to fly canopies which emulate the sort of canopy that they may start flying once they're off student status and flying their own gear? If that means flying a ZP canopy which has a flare, I would think my answer would be YES, except that maybe they should still be flying the monster Manta type of canopy for their first few jumps. The reason I say that, is that they need to experience a few landings to get a feel for when to flare and how much to flare. If you put a first jump student on a ZP canopy with a decent flare and they flare way too early, they're likely going to be in more trouble than if they were on a monster Manta which is much more forgiving. But once they've got a few jumps under their belts and their instructors feel that they are ready, then I would think putting them under a ZP canopy which flares will only benefit the student. But an elliptical canopy for students/beginnners and even intermediate canopy pilots doesn't sound right. Just my two cents ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #125 February 21, 2003 Wow!!! As much as I would like to find something wrong with this... I just can't Damn!!!!!Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
