brabzzz 0 #1 February 23, 2003 Hi, before I even ask - yes i will test jump the club 170 (a Merit I think) and have/will continue to ask instructors! Basically, I'm after new gear, and am looking at a 170 or 190 Spectre. I'd load that at about 1.08 and 1.2 respectively assuming total sd-only gear weighs 25 ontop of my 180 clothed. It would be my first canopy (and rig for that matter). I'm going against the adage old of buying used first as finding some to fit me is a nightmare (in the UK) and I'm hoping to keep it for years (currently as a student, I'm looking at about 100 jumps/yr so I won't be downsizing rapidly for ages). I've jumped 290's, 230's, 210's and 190's if I remember rightly over 50 jumps. I can stand up the PD ZP 210/190 in the UK all the time, though the 190 gave me a few problems in Gap (far higher elevation DZ). I've heard the Spectre is a nice, relatively forgiving canopy. I might be able to test jump a 190, but certainly not a 170. Is there such a performance difference that would yell NO to the 170? Will the 170 be an unforgiving b*****d at 1.2? I'm certain I'd be okay immediately with the 190, but if there is no drastic difference the 170 (flown carefully and played with up high up) would offer more long term potential. All I'm concerned with is approach speed to judge the flare as I certainly won't more than touch the toggles if at all possible on finals! My other 'line' of thought is to get something more 'fun' at 190 - and had a Sabre2 recommended as 'sweet' - something that I could learn tonnes from before moving down a size to 170 - and then 'across' to another class of main (stiletto?). It's probably BS long term planning, but I'm not minted, certainly want to be safe and really want to resist downsizing to a level where a f*** up would really hurt regardless of my skill at the time. Is something I've babbled about yelling NO to the 170 as a first canopy? Regards, options mind f***ed Mike. --------------------------------------- Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club www.skydivebristoluni.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #2 February 23, 2003 Quote All I'm concerned with is approach speed to judge the flare as I certainly won't more than touch the toggles if at all possible on finals! I'd recommend the 190. If you're afraid to "more than touch the toggles" on final it's too fast for you. A 190 will keep you happy for a couple hundred jumps if you learn to fly it to it's potential. And that extra 20 square feet might be the difference between a slight limp and a ride on a stretcher the day you make a mistake - and we all make mistakes, especially in our first couple hundred jumps. As always, take any advice given here (especially mine ) with a grain of salt... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wonko 0 #3 February 23, 2003 Hi Mike, we are all different and nobody can tell you which canopy to choose without seeing your flight. Lower wingload is certainly safer but it can easily bore you. Another bad thing about big canopies (yes flame me now !) is that somtime folks jumping them never get an idea about proper canopy control. They do believe they do - actually they are just passengers. If possible, get some good canopy coaching - it is really worth of every single dime. Then make your decision. I bought spectre-170 (w/l slightly below 1.4) when I had 200 jumps. Immediately after this I received canopy control coaching (3 days focused on landing techniques + CReW intro). This coaching has saved my ass many times. And without that coaching, I could be toast even under by previous canopy - PD-210 (w/l 1,1), for now. It is not a big nylon what makes your safe. And, a good news: the spring is coming villem life is what you make it to be http://www.youtube.com/villu357 http://www.flickr.com/photos/skybound Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mattbs4e 0 #4 February 23, 2003 I agree with skybytch and wonko, canopy flight is something that is constantly changing in your first couple hundred jumps, and it's important to be under something forgiving. But, I'm 220 lbs out the door with camera equipment (wing loading 1.29), and got a spectre 170 that I've put about 300 jumps on. It was the first canopy I ever bought when I had about 50 jumps and I'd only jumped as low as a spectre 190 before I ever even got my 170. I got the spectre for a relatively stupid reason, but it turned out to be the perfect canopy for me. My stupid reason is that I basically could not pack very well at the time. Spectres just open well overal, and that was a huge draw to me. I have been slammed once, but it was entirely my fault, and every other time has been soft and steady. And believe me, I've packed this thing worse than you could imagine at times, which is entirely unacceptable-Spectre or not, but it opened like a dream. Be warned though, Spectres have a tendency to open slowly at times, especially if you roll the nose while packing. This is probably why they open so softly. It's not everytime, but a 1000 ft opening is not uncommon from my experience and what I've heard. I personally once had a 1700 ft opening. So my advice is to pull by at least 3500 ft. As far as the performance towards something more speedier, I would just stay with the Spectre. If you think you'll get bored within 100 jumps, just go with the 170 instead of the 190. I wouldn't say that about a jump to a 150, but between a 190 and a 170, I honestly could not tell the difference. My Spectre flies straight and does not require constant attention like a smaller or elliptical canopy might. I used to do as many pull ups as I could twice a day for the sole purpose of building my upper body strength so I could pull down on the front toggles of my 170. When I first got the canopy, I would have to pull my body really high up on the front toggles to dive only a little bit. If I didn't do that, even with a wing loading of almost 1.3, the canopy would hardly ever gain speed. When I finally built enough strength, I changed from a standard pilot chute to a kill-line to reduce drag, and now if I do a hook turn into a dive, I can get a decent swoop and flare. I don't bring this up to suggest you do this, but only to say that it took all that to force the canopy into a situation that would be dangerous. Otherwise, if I just toggled it the whole flight, it would be smooth, steady, and on heading. I guess what I'm saying is, I really have to work my 170 to get it to do anything fast, otherwise though, it responds well to conservative flying and recovers from dives or stalls very rapidly. I should mention that all these jumps were at sea level or close to it, and I don't know what elevation your DZ is at, but that is definetly something to consider when comparing the 170 to the 190. Either way, the Spectre is a great canopy, and is especially good for learning on because it is very forgiving. I obviously went with the 170 and I was instantly glad I did, but the 190 is just as good, and probably safer if you're worried about your wing loading and elevation. Yet, I would not tell you to be afraid of the 170. Maybe just buy the 170 and continue demo-ing the 190 until you're ready for the 170. It honestly wouldn't be that long once you understand how the Spectre flies. -Of course, these are only from my experiences, and they do not speak for everyone or every Spectre. I hope it is useful though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brabzzz 0 #5 February 24, 2003 Right, even before you lot replied (and thanks for replying!), upon proof-reading the uploaded message the answer was clear. The 190. If 'youre not sure, you ain't ready!' springs to mind... That leaves a final question: Sabre2 or Spectre? I havn't yet jumped either (and test jump options here are very limited). What would I learn most from? I'll have dive loops on the risers to eventually help eek out whatever i can from it - but what will give me more at the far end of its envelope (even if it is lame compared to the <120's you lot jump!)? --------------------------------------- Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club www.skydivebristoluni.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #6 February 24, 2003 Quote(even if it is lame compared to the <120's you lot jump!)? LOL, that made me laugh. Who cares if the canopy's lame, as long as YOU aren't, you know? I gotta vote for the Spectre. I am a terrible canopy pilot (but am getting better). I make mistakes on a regular basis. So far, I've been able to walk or limp away from all of them. And it's not because I'm lucky or special...it's because I am on a lightly loaded Spectre. I am working hard to fill up my experience bucket, and learn from all of my mistakes. But it's good to know that so far, I've learned while sitting at home, and not while lying in a hospital bed or worse. Spectre. I've never heard anyone who jumps one say they regret it. And I have heard people say they wish they had bought one. Which is why I bought one. Spectre. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #7 February 24, 2003 The Sabre2 is a nine cell while the Spectre is a seven cell. So at equal wing loadings the Sabre2 will give you a flatter glide angle and slightly more forward speed resulting in more of a swoop. As to which one is better for you, that will depend on what you want to get into. I'm a novice swooper and thus prefer the swooping capabilities of the Sabre2 and I feel that this is an excellent canopy for myself to be learning on. But you may be more into accuracy jumping, in which case the Spectre will be better for you. It all depends on what style of canopy fight attracts you. But as always, talk to those who you jump with who know your abilities and trust. And take whatever we say here on DZ.COM with a bolder of salt. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wonko 0 #8 February 25, 2003 Mike, Quote Sabre2 or Spectre? 7-cell vs. 9-cell is topic discussed quite a lot in Swooping and Canopy Control forum, for example. I have jumped Sabre but not Sabre2 . I know it is very good canopy. But I would still vote for Spectre, a second-hand one. The reasons: - easier to land to somebodys backyard if you really have to; - a bit safer in turbulence than 9 cell; - when you finally will be able to swoop it as you like, you probably have learned a lot. Then it will be the time to buy a new rocket for next 300 jumps have funvillem life is what you make it to be http://www.youtube.com/villu357 http://www.flickr.com/photos/skybound Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfc 1 #9 February 25, 2003 I'd go with the 190, I got a 150 spectre at the same wing loading as you on a 190 when I had 50 jumps and put 650 jumps on it. It seemed very fast at first after having jumped 210s especially in low winds but 100 jumps took care of that. It rocks and I still love it, and I'll be sorry to see it go when I sell it in two weeks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
