I need some help from 4 way flyers.

[Deuce 1]

What's the rock bottom you will fly for? I am not in it for the money, but I think a team should at the very least pay for a camera flyer's jump ticket and pack jobs.

Does anybody know a decent camera flyer who will dedicate himself to a 4 way team for a year for less? Can I get some unofficial numbers from folks, maybe in PM's.

Thanks,

JP

[Danger 0]

The rock bottom? It all depends on your skill level and how much time and effort will be going into the team.

When I started flying camera I paid for my own jumps. After getting around 20-30 team jumps the team picked up my jump ticket.

I was able to make a dedication to a team for over a year and all I asked for was my slot. This team went to the Worlds with me.

After that I have been able to ask for a little more. Pack jobs and travel to training camps.

Until you have proved yourself in competition and been around a while slot is a pretty good deal.

Danger

[PhreeZone 20]

I'm more then happy to jump with teams and groups for free at the DZ. I'm happy if they pick up my slot. If I was commiting to a team I'd only ask for slot at max. If the team all had multiple rigs and where doing back to backs all day I'd see about getting slot plus pack job on the rig.

I also think it depends on what all services you are doing for the team. If all you are doing is video then thats cool. If you are doing manifesting, notifing the team of the calls, making sure their rigs are packed while they dirt dive, dubbing 4 copies of the dive tapes, making a master DV/8 copy for later review, getting the team beverages and stuff during the dirt dives, making sure they are aware of anything that the team needs to know about and keeping the rest away from the team during comps... then you deserve a bit more.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[quade 4]

Set your price based on what other LOCAL camera flyers of similar skills and service levels are charging. It isn't exactly fair to compare what Stein or Stevie are getting over at Airspeed, because your team is probably not also providing things like . . . gear.

Take a good look at the service you -are- able to give the team. What's your track record like in competitions -- any NJs recently? How much would YOU pay?

The teams should either see the value in what you're giving them, or look elseware.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Deuce 1]

This is my dillema.

If I do six tandem videos I get my slot plus about $150. Minus pack jobs I'm up $120.

If I go shoot 6 4-way jumps and don't get pack money, I'm out $30. I do manifest and gofer for the team. I also make everybody a dub, and dub between jumps. I don't have enough time between jumps to manifest and get myself packed and have some water, I have to use a packer.

Before I could shoot tandems, just the slot seemed like a good deal. I think about my family in everything and I feel like I've got a good excuse for paying somebody to mow my lawn if my skydiving is "free". It feels really good if I come home from skydiving with enough money to take my family out to dinner.

Quade, the only hard core team up here that I know of is Formula 4, pretty much, and I don't know what their deal with their camera flyer is.

Thanks for the reply's folks. As always, they are very much appreciated.

JP

[PhreeZone 20]

Most time RW camera fliers are not in it for money (at least all those I've met). Most seem to be in it for the love of RW and the challenge of shooting a perfect jump. If they make some spare cash thats cool but its not a job for them. Tandem videos is a job that also means you get drug smack into DZ politics.

Also look at it this way... your only paying $30 for 6 skydives and pack jobs and improving your skills to offer to a team later for increased pay/comp. I seem to remember that you just started a few months ago on the RW camera. It takes time to develop the skills to command money plus slot plus pack job


Side note: >I also make everybody a dub, and dub between jumps.

Make a dub at the end of the jump but it should'nt take any more then 45 seconds to make that dub. then use the master dub to make 3 other dubs. Make the dub as soon as you snag Tv/VCR while waiting on the team to get there. Then show the video once, hand the remote to the team captian and leave to pack. I was told to do this from a highly experienced RW flyer. If you stick around while they slo-mo the video then its eating into your time. When you get the camera back cue it up and your ready to jump.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[quade 4]

Well, hell buddy, ya need to talk to Jennifer from Formula 4!

That's just about the most perfect fit you're going to find for an "average" camera flyer situation. My guess is your skills aren't quite up to her standards yet, but I'll bet she has been exactly where you are at some point in her career. Have her look over your tapes -- not just the perfect stuff either.

I completely understand about the financial lure of shooting tandems. Just to let you know, there was a team at Perris that had asked a full-time tandem/AFF instructor/shooter to jump camera for them at Nationals. The camera flyer relies on his tandem/AFF/camera jumping to put a roof over his head and food in his mouth, so naturally, his rates were going to have to be quite steep in order for it to be financially viable for him to shoot them. On the flip side of that is a camera flyer that just flat out loves to shoot competition video and doesn't really care too much about the money. However, it's still very important to charge the team a reasonably competitive amount otherwise you're just screwing your fellow camera flyers.

So, what's reasonable?

To me, it doesn't have anything to do with your personal needs. It has to do with the service you provide and what the normal local market rate for that service is.

If the rate isn't good for you or the team, then it doesn't make much sense for you to do it. If the money you'd make in shooting tandems makes that a more attractive situation than what you can reasonably charge and receive for shooting 4-way, then you have to decide which YOU want to do. At that point, it's not really up to the team anymore. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

If, on the other hand, you don't really care about shooting tandems as much as working with a team, then maybe the money isn't really what it's about anyway and you can charge a rock bottom minimum just high enough that it won't piss off the other camera flyers.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Deuce 1]

You're absolutely right about my time in the sport.

I won't be able to dedicate this much time from my family again, so this would be my only year taking a team to nationals. I think it's a good opportunity. When my kids are out of High School in 12 years, maybe then (I'll be 55)

I have to haul my own TV/VCR to the DZ, cause I don't have access to the equipment at my team's DZ. (More stuff I have to buy and haul). I dub right out of my camera to my combo.

Thanks again for framing the question. Do I get enough joy from shooting a 4 way team to pay $5 for the fun, or do I get more joy from shooting tandems and earning money from it to boot?

Grist.

[Deuce 1]

My previous post went up before I read yours, Q. You know I take your advice seriously. We kind of talked about this when I visited Perris.

I'm not in it for the money. During the week I'm in it for the money, so on the weekends I REALLY need the joy of the skydiving community.

I love team sports where everybody is giving it their all, and there's lots of encouragement. Sometimes members of my group are a little bitter, so jumping with them is not joyful. I would not be a member of this team, but I would video it. So I guess with this group, it is kind of like a job. Now that I articulate it, I don't want to pay money to jump with grouchy people. But I would do it for free.

When tandems aren't barfing, they are usually pretty joyful. I get along great with all the TM's et al. We are going to ask Jennifer to look over my tapes from the next team workout. I'll take it from there.

If you have her e-mail address, could you PM it to me?

Thanks again Quade.

JP

[quade 4]

http://www.formula4.net/ but I can't seem to find an email address for Jennifer.

You might try writing Bobby, their team captain, at Jetace1@rocketmail.com. It's entirely possible that he's not back from Nationals yet though.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skreamer 1]

Quote

Do I get enough joy from shooting a 4 way team to pay $5 for the fun,

If you're doing 6 jumps a day filming FS (as mentioned in a previous post), how come you don't have time to pack for yourself? Did you try doing what Eric suggested? (ie pack while the team debriefs)

Will

[Deuce 1]

Quote

Quote

Do I get enough joy from shooting a 4 way team to pay $5 for the fun,

If you're doing 6 jumps a day filming FS (as mentioned in a previous post), how come you don't have time to pack for yourself? Did you try doing what Eric suggested? (ie pack while the team debriefs)

Will

Frankly, because I suck.

I have done that a few days and coming in, taking my helmet apart, cueing up the tape, packing, manifesting, reassembling my helmet, notifying the team it's time to suit up, gearing up myself, double checking everything and then jumping and repeating the process leaves me dead on my feet at the end of the day. And as Quade describes in his excellent narrative, that's when you have to dub the other team member's tapes.

I/we don't have a video locker, so I have to do this on stuff I haul around myself, a small tv/vcr unit.

Look, this really sounds like a guy whining about not having prime rib when he's eating roast beef, and that's not how I feel.

It reads like plenty of well-qualified camera flyers are willing to jump 4-way camera for a year for the jump tickets. And they'd be overjoyed to do it.

It also reads like the pro's who are top-notch can charge a steep fee, comparable to a tandem video flyer who can make upwards of $200 a day plus the tickets.

I am not a top-notch camera flyer, yet. So I'm clearly blessed to have this choice. I wanted all the information I could get from this great peer group before I made a commitment to either the video concession owner at my DZ, or the 4 way team captain.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

JP

[tommy 0]

Just some random thoughts...

I'll be honest.... I'd much rather shoot 4-way (or 6, or 8 or whatever) than Tandem's and Aff's. The student vids get too repatetive.. boring. I never thought I'd say that, but it sure does get boring. :)

At least with the RW groups, I'm hanging w/ my friends and basically having a good time, less 'pressure'. More often than not, I pay my own slot too. (I get $$ from doing the student vids, which pays for my fun jumps, so it's not *really* costing me.)

Every few months we host a 'scrambles' 4-way meet, and the video folks get their slot paid for, and that's it. Most of us fight to video the scrambles instead of doing student videos.

Blue Skies!
-Tommy

[quade 4]

Tommy --

What DZ is this and what is the average number of students they put up on a weekend day?

I think that a lot of these decisions are location dependant.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[tommy 0]

dz = skydive virginia.

# of students vary. it's been slllllooowwww as hell the last few months. it's 'usually' 45-50+ tandems per weekend day + a handfull of aff's. lately it's been 10-15 tandems per weekend day and a handfull of aff's. we average between 50-75% or so student video's per day.

right now, there are 2 to 3 of us there on a regular basis. we're hurting for vid folks, so when it's busy, we vid folks are doing back to back to back loads, then having to come down, dub, pack, etc... we get burnout quickly. we all have 2 or more rigs, and it always seems as though one is unpacked and there's some dubbing to be done.

it's a releif for me to jump in on a 4way or video a group of experienced jumpers. :)

blue skies.
-tommy