Cutaway entanglement with Ring site (Non Fatal)

[Rdutch 0]

The Jumper was videoing a 4way dive, after an uneventful freefall the jumper deployed his main, a 71sq ft Velocity, which spun up rapidly. He immediately cutaway and pulled his reserve rapidly in succession. His main released and the left riser caught on his ringsite. He notced immediately and pulled it free breaking his ring site. His main flew free and his reserve opened fine.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I've been reluctant to install a ring sight on my freefly helmet for this very reason.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[sducoach 0]

That is why you should have some experience before you start jumping camers. Also why my Flat Top Pro is going back for the cut away retrofit.

Blues,
J.E.

James 4:8

[Zenister 0]

one would hope that anyone flying a 71sq ft Velocity had some experience

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Rdutch 0]

Quote

That is why you should have some experience before you start jumping camers. Also why my Flat Top Pro is going back for the cut away retrofit.

Blues,
J.E.

The camera flyer was very experienced, just had bad luck, and made some mistakes. He has since removed his ring site and fixed a small paper circle on his lens (Bought from an office supply store).

To all who see this: Jumping a small highly wingloaded canopy add's enough extra risk. Adding a ring site and a video camera dramatically increases that risk, I do it, heck a lot of people do it, you need to access the risk and decide if it is worth it to you. Also a reliable release system for your camera helmet is a must have in this case. Also even though things happen fast in a malfunction with a canopy of this size, you should plan for this and pull high enough to handle any situation i.e at Breakoff. Cutting away and pulling your reserve at almost the same time also isnt a very good idea. Junior could have easily had a serious problem if his reserve opened a litle faster and his main and reserve entangled. I myself like to take a second (Depending on altitude of course) Even though I use a one hand on each handle approach I dont pull both at the same time. With two fatalities last year alone and two such incedents at my Dz in the past 2 months, I am weighing the idea of a ringsite (even though mine is real clean). I definitely have a plan to not watch my cutaway, I have had 2 with a camera and luckily I dont have either on film, I did have a good view of what was below me. Most of all Be Carefull.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[billvon 3,006]

>one would hope that anyone flying a 71sq ft Velocity had some experience

No longer true. In modern skydiving, if you can survive the landing, you're generally considered ready for the canopy. I know a few people on sub-100 sq ft canopies who have trouble standing them up - and a lot of people on 120+ sq ft canopies who can swoop a lot longer than they can.

[Rdutch 0]

Quote

>one would hope that anyone flying a 71sq ft Velocity had some experience

No longer true. In modern skydiving, if you can survive the landing, you're generally considered ready for the canopy. I know a few people on sub-100 sq ft canopies who have trouble standing them up - and a lot of people on 120+ sq ft canopies who can swoop a lot longer than they can.

Very true Bill, and since this is another incedent I will post this here, We had skydive U student grab the wrong rig, He was doing a solo so his instructor wasn't involved, but the 200+ Pound man with about 45 jump's grabbed a very small rig belonging to one of the staff cameramen. The rig contained a stilletto 97, how the guy even fit into this rig eludes me as it's owner is about 4'10 and about 100lbs. The jumper realised he grabbed the wrong rig upon opening, and was extra careful, and landed without incedent.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[sducoach 0]

Good deal. Fact is that we never know when "bad luck" will strike. So, emergency procedures need to be considered and modified when flying cameras. Add a "small highly wingloaded canopy" and you know what happens. Your reaction time must accelerate just as fast as your canopy does. Good post as a great reminder to all camera flyers, experienced or not.

Blues,
J.E.

James 4:8

[dreamsville 0]

Ray, thanks for reporting on the "grabbed the wrong rig" incident. I have often wondered what it would be like if I was all of a sudden under a Velocity 90, rather than the usual Stilleto 135 and hadn't expected it. The jumper probably maintained his cool. Hats off to him.
|

I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[Deuce 1]

Thanks for the post Ray. Well told.

JP

[Push 0]

Would it be a good idea to go to the reserve in this case? Pissed off jumpers on the ground aside, that is. The reserves are usually 7 cell and larger.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[RevJim 0]

The reserve will most likely be bigger, and 7 cell, as you mention, but not really that much bigger. You would be trading off a 9 cell Zero P canopy with great glide for a 7 cell, most likely F111 type canopy with a not so great glide with light loading. Combine this with a heavier jumper and the landing characteristics get much worse. If I was to find myself suddenly under a main that small, I'd be inclided to trust it to get me to the ground safely, and be prepared to PLF like a mother Fu@#er. A heavy guy trying to land a ~100 sq ft F111 might as well be jumping a round. It'll get you down, but if you aren't prepared for it, it's gonna hurt, possibly really badly.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[Push 0]

This is a completely different issue then. If someone like SkymonkeyOne goes to his reserve, he's into a world of pain on landing? Perhaps reserves this small should also be Zero-P?

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[brentfinley 0]

The articulating bracket used to mount a sight on a freefly helmet comes with Nylon screws. It's meant to come off in an emergency.

If you're concerned about this type of scenario, I recommend using that to mount a sight as well as attaching something like a breakable string loop that also secures the articulating bracket to the helmet... this way, if someone kicks your mount and it's NOT an emergency, then you won't lose the sight in freefall. If you really do have something snagged, it will break the string too.

Brent

www.brentfinley.com
brent@brentfinley.com

[billvon 3,006]

>Perhaps reserves this small should also be Zero-P?

ZP is not much better than new F111. It's _old_ F111 that has problems.

And if you can't land the reserve you have safely, it would behoove you to increase the size of your reserve until you _can_ land it safely, given the worst case conditions you jump in (i.e. including weight of camera helmet etc.)

[Hooknswoop 19]

I've landed a few very small reserves. All were standing up, on target. It was very tricky with very little margin for error. I was definately focused on flying the canopy. On the first ride, I did a practice flare and almost stalled it, with the toggles at my shoulders. There is a reserve offered with a ZP top skin, but I have only seen a couple.

Hook

[livendive 8]

Quote

Would it be a good idea to go to the reserve in this case? Pissed off jumpers on the ground aside, that is. The reserves are usually 7 cell and larger.

Actually, it seems to me that most people jump reserves that are smaller than their mains. This guy with 45 jumps had no way of knowing the thing above his head was 97 sq.ft. How could he (or you) tell? For all he knew it could have been a 120 or 135, and cutting away might have given him a PD-106 (though at least that would have been square and had a lower aspect ratio). I say the proper response is to check it out and see if you can control it. Cutting away a properly functioning canopy in favor of an unknown is bad juju.

That said, if someone mistakenly grabbed my rig when it had the EXT-99 in it, cutting away in favor of the reserve would get them a Tempo 170.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[RevJim 0]

Quote

This is a completely different issue then. If someone like SkymonkeyOne goes to his reserve, he's into a world of pain on landing? Perhaps reserves this small should also be Zero-P?

Dave, Bill, and Hook had excellent replies to your question. I was refering to someone with very little experience attempting to land a very small F111 7 cell vs. a very small ZP. Experienced jumpers know (I hope) what they are getting into when they spec out their container and reserve. The newbie on the other hand has most likely never flown anything that small. Combine that with the "sink and stall" characteristics of a heavily loaded F111 7 cell. . . the ouch/pucker factor gets high quickly.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[billvon 3,006]

>There is a reserve offered with a ZP top skin, but I have only seen a couple.

I should point out that Precision makes it very clear that their ZP-topskin reserve does NOT fly any differently than their non-ZP Raven reserve. It does not land better or swoop farther or have a better flare. It does, however, last longer, which may be a factor to CRW people or other people who have to repack their reserves often. (Hook I figured you knew that but I just wanted to point it out to everyone else.)

[Push 0]

So what would you say the best course of action would be? Aside from not grabbing the wrong rig in the first place, of course. There should definitely be an altitude deck past which you shouldn't do any maneuvers whatsoever, simply because you don't know how much altitude you will lose and how much speed you will gain. Fly it downwind of the target by 1000', point it upwind, flare and PLF?

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[betzilla 56]

Quote

This is a completely different issue then. If someone like SkymonkeyOne goes to his reserve, he's into a world of pain on landing? Perhaps reserves this small should also be Zero-P?

My sweetie has several ladnings on PD 106 reserves (he's not a small guy), and he swears they "swoop great."

[RevJim 0]

Quote

Fly it downwind of the target by 1000', point it upwind, flare and PLF?

That's pretty much my take on it, yep.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[RevJim 0]

Quote

Quote

This is a completely different issue then. If someone like SkymonkeyOne goes to his reserve, he's into a world of pain on landing? Perhaps reserves this small should also be Zero-P?

My sweetie has several ladnings on PD 106 reserves (he's not a small guy), and he swears they "swoop great."

Many people jump small reserves. I'm not saying they shouldn't, it's their choice. My concern is that same small reserve with a big person, and very few jumps total. I'm sure they swoop fine, but the newbie isn't going to be swooping. He/she's trying to land and stay in one piece. I'm not confidant that the newer jumper in question would be able to do that. I have what I consider to be too small a reserve right now (PD126R). I'll be specing out a new container this fall (I hope) and sizing it for a reserve in the 170ish range. To me, the reserve is there to get me to the ground safe, in an emergency. No flairing the 170ish might hurt me, but I believe I will survive. I don't think the 126 would.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[joshjumps 0]

Quote

I should point out that Precision makes it very clear that their ZP-topskin reserve does NOT fly any differently than their non-ZP Raven reserve. It does not land better or swoop farther or have a better flare. It does, however, last longer, which may be a factor to CRW people or other people who have to repack their reserves often. (Hook I figured you knew that but I just wanted to point it out to everyone else.)

It should also be noted that when zero-p fails it tends to fail more catastrophically than f-111.
Zero-P also fails when it is packed for a long time quite often on the folds where it has been packed. Reserves, usually being packed for months without opening and use,fall into this category.

blues,
Josh