tdmmistressmali 0 #1 March 18, 2003 greetings from Canada....interested in opinions on tandem gear, i currently have a vector/sigma rating but i have only jumped sigmas and i love them, especially the 375 mains! i'm going to be jumping at a new dz this year that has stong gear...unsure if i want to convert as i don't like the idea of having an out of sequence opening....not that i can't deal but it's one less BIG thing to worry about on an already stressful skydive with the sigmas! seen some reserve mals as well so i guess i'm a bit apprehensive although others that i know that do jump strongs hold high opinions of them. Ted, if your out there...talk to me! i do enjoy doing tandems and i don't want to quit!!!I do whatever the little voices tell me to...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #2 March 18, 2003 You may want to put this in the Gear & Rigging forum. You'll probably have a much better response there instead of here in the Greets forum. KrisSky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #3 March 18, 2003 Hi and welcome! I humbly suggest you search the posts for your questions before throwing out another. Here's a thread right up your alley! Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdmmistressmali 0 #4 March 18, 2003 thnx kris....never been on one of these forums before, i'm a bit of a dumbass when it comes to this internet stuff!!!I do whatever the little voices tell me to...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Danger 0 #5 March 18, 2003 Just wanted to say hi to the Tandem Mistress. Danger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #6 March 18, 2003 Welcome tdmmistressmali, I will take your question personally as I am the rigger who maintains the fleet of Strong tandem gear you are contemplating jumping this summer. I have also been a Vector tandem instructor since before they had drogues, but my last 2,000 tandem jumps have been on Strongs. Over the last four years, we have averaged one malfunction per year. The first malfunction was on a Master 425 that was retired when we standardized on SET 400s, The other three malfunctions were caused by sloppy packing. The second malfunction was a hard opening that broke a flare line. The packer was reminded to stow lines more carefully. The third malfunction involved a stabilizer/line entanglement so bad that I landed it softly beside the bowl. Our most recent mal involved a mis-routed bridle that was also missed during gear check. None of those mals were out-of-sequence deployments. Yes, Sigmas have fewer possible malfunction modes. However, all other brands (including Vector) of tandem work well, provided they are packed and operated according to the manufacturer's instructions. The little voices are telling you to jump Strongs at your new DZ and share the students' joy. Blue skies riggerrob pompous FAA Master Rigger Racer tandem instructor since 1996 Strong tandem instructor since 1986 Vector tandem instructor since 1986 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Danger 0 #7 March 18, 2003 I believe she is also concerned about the reserves on the Strong systems. 2 TandemMaster friends of hers had reserve failures that resulted in multiple injuries to one couple and miracleously no injuries to the other pair. I know as I was ther for one of them and have the video to prove it. The reserve failed (split front to back, top and bottom) at 120mph. Danger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #8 March 18, 2003 Quote2 TandemMaster friends of hers had reserve failures that resulted in multiple injuries to one couple and miracleously no injuries to the other pair. I know as I was ther for one of them and have the video to prove it. The reserve failed (split front to back, top and bottom) at 120mph. Can you give more details of these reserve mals/problems? Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #9 March 18, 2003 Quoteinterested in opinions on tandem gear I am Eclipse, Vector, and Sigma rated. I have found the Eclipse to be a lower quality copy of the Vector. The Vector is OK. The Sigma is simply impressive. I would consider the Sigma to be like having a ram-air main, and anything else a round main. They both work, but how many people would choose a round over a ram-air? Sure they cost more, but so do ram-air. They are worth it (ram-airs and Sigmas). I have refused to get my Strong rating and never will. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Danger 0 #10 March 18, 2003 I will give out an account of one because I was there filming. The other incident happened to a jumper from my DZ but happened at a Boogie on another Dz. The incident I witnessed was a double mal. The TM had a funky exit. At drogue toss they went unstable (on right side) and the drogue was in hand and released at this point. The drrogue went over arm. Similiar to if you toss your PC the wrong way. The bridle caught something and released the main. The TM was unaware of the main trailing behind them wrapping around the drogue bridle. Only at drogue release did the TM know what I was signalling about. Uneventful cutaway. Very calm TM. As the reserve deployed it torn between the 2nd and third cells, front to back, top and bottom skin. The only thing holding the cells on was the binding tape. Reserve was open arond 4500'. I opened between 3000' and 3500'. I turned the camera off (didn't want to film a fatality). The TM was able to get some control of the canopy around 750' (4 cells open and flying). They beat me to the ground ( I was jumping my 120). When I saw they were alive I restarted recording and landed beside them. Nothing more than a small cut on the TM's nose and the passenger had no idea anything was wrong. Luckily the TM had numerous round jumps and flew it like a round until he could get some control over it. This happened 3 years ago. All on video. Danger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdmmistressmali 0 #11 March 19, 2003 hey danger! nice to have you in on this forum! i am seriously torn on this subject, i WANT to keep jumping tandems and not have to go back to joe's just to stay current enough to keep my rating jumping sigmas...i don't think it is safe to just do them enough to stay current. (and not that i don't plan to jump at joe's ever again, but the turbines are talkin' to me ya know!) anyways, i figured this is a good opportunity to get some feedback that will help me make an educated decision instead of just acting on my heebejeebees after seeing what i saw with the above mentioned mal! i mean it's not like the sigma's are perfect i have read about accidents and fatalities with them too ya know? oh decisions decisions!!!!I do whatever the little voices tell me to...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #12 March 19, 2003 Quotei have read about accidents and fatalities with them too ya know? I am very interested in hearing about serious accidents and fatalities involving the Sigma. Please elaborate . . .Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdmmistressmali 0 #13 March 19, 2003 hi john, i recall reading in i think it was parachutist (either that or skydiving) magazing last summer about an incident where the student died and the instrucor survived under a spinning reserve.....i will look through my back issues tonight after work to find the article and get back to you with the details!I do whatever the little voices tell me to...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #14 March 19, 2003 Quote I have refused to get my Strong rating and never will. Hook Why? Just courious... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #15 March 19, 2003 Danger, Thank you for posting a first-hand account of that torn tandem reserve. The rumours have been circulating for three years, but this is the first first-hand account we have heard. I have torn up more than my share of Strong F-111 mains, and landed far more torn F-111 mains than I care to remember. But if a torn main did not pass a controlability check, I released it and pulled the silver handle. Those Strong reserves always always opened fine. I only have one terminal opening on a Strong reserve and that had me seeing stars! Strong reserves usually fly far better than their F-111 mains and most of my 14 Strong reserve rides resulted in stand-up landings on the edge of the bowl. Furthermore most of those reserve rides were with more than 450 pounds suspended weight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #16 March 19, 2003 Rob - the was a torn Strong reserve at the Batavia boogie - the guys from Frontier in upstate NY. A terminal reserve deployment resulted in enough torn cells and broken lines that only 4 cells were properly inflated. The student broke her arm, the TM broke his back. The TM was Scott Anderson, who used to jump at STI, and was a member of the flying lizzards. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Danger 0 #17 March 19, 2003 I believe everyone has the right to feel comfortable with their equipment. Whether it be Sigma, Strong, older vectors, etc, any rig has the possibility of malfunctioning. It could be a small design flaw (unlikely), pilot error or other problems. Strong's have been on the market for around 20 years with very few problems. The Sigma's have not been on the market long enough to to compare head to head. Both rigs serve their function very well. Although the Sigma does look nicer and is a newer design. That said some people won't jump a Racer as a personal rig because of velcro and/or the poptop. I jump one as my backup rig and have a great rigger that takes care of it for me. It is no more dangerous than any other rig on the market. If you are a cautious jumper and maintain the equipment to a high standard you reduce the risks associated with skydiving. However any piece of equipment has the ability to fail and cause serious results. To each their own. Danger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #18 March 19, 2003 Rob, did you just say that you had 14 Strong reserve rides? I have to tell you that this makes me cringe. Whether it be line-overs from idiot packers not following the manufacturers explicit (no pro packing) instructions or structural failure (again, why are you continuing to use this gear?), I think I would have figured out how to avoid reserve rides by now. I am certainly not digging on you, as you are still alive, but all I can do is shake my head. Even without that being said, like Derek, I have no desire whatsoever to get a Strong type-rating. I have three of them here at the school I run and I hate to task anyone to jump them. While they are perfectly maintained, they are sloppy looking, the mains fly like crap and have heavy toggle pressure, and the deployment bags are scary. Thanks, I will keep to our Sigmas, and so long as we are not backed up too much, I won't ask any of my other TM's to jump them. Just my opinion. Back when the only other option was a head-down profile in an old Vector, the Strong made sense because of it's head-high attitude; it just made for better video and stills. None of that applies now with the Sigma; it's plenty easy to video and flies very flat. Anyone want to buy some nice Strongs? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Danger 0 #19 March 19, 2003 The was the second torn reserve I was talking about. Danger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #20 March 19, 2003 QuoteI have refused to get my Strong rating and never will. Why? Just courious... Gear design. Main and reserve canopies. Container design. The one advantage the Strong had over everyone else, drogue attachment location, was solved in the Sigma. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdmmistressmali 0 #21 March 20, 2003 lizzards!!! it's reptiles my friend! flying reptiles!!! I do whatever the little voices tell me to...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdmmistressmali 0 #22 March 20, 2003 hey john, i went through all the back issues i had at home, (skydiving as far back as sept, and a couple of parachutist issues too) but i could not find the article i was referring to. all of the other back issues i have are at my trailer at the dz. i'll check into them this weekend .......anyone else out there recall reading about this incident?I do whatever the little voices tell me to...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #23 March 20, 2003 QuoteRob, did you just say that you had 14 Strong reserve rides? I have to tell you that this makes me cringe. Whether it be line-overs from idiot packers not following the manufacturers explicit (no pro packing) instructions or structural failure (again, why are you continuing to use this gear?), I think I would have figured out how to avoid reserve rides by now. I am certainly not digging on you, as you are still alive, but all I can do is shake my head. Skydive monkey, Yes I did say that I had 14! tandem reserve rides. One reserve ride was caused by a finger problem, but the rest were cutaways from various types of partially inflated, tangled or torn Strong 425 and 520 main canopies. Rest assured that we have retired all those F-111 canopies that resulted in all those malfunctions. Instructors in Pitt Meadows flatly refuse to jump F-111 anymore and my last tandem reserve ride was in in 1998. Knock on wood. And you are correct in assuming that most of those malfunctions were caused by idiot packers. F-111 tandems used to open hard unless they were packed very neatly. Our malfunction rate at Hemet California declined dramatically when Iron Mike took over the packing concession and started PRO-packing. Iron Mike was the neatest main packer I have ever seen. "Even without that being said, like Derek, I have no desire whatsoever to get a Strong type-rating. I have three of them here at the school I run and I hate to task anyone to jump them. While they are perfectly maintained, they are sloppy looking, the mains fly like crap and have heavy toggle pressure, and the deployment bags are scary. Thanks, I will keep to our Sigmas, and so long as we are not backed up too much, I won't ask any of my other TM's to jump them. Just my opinion. Back when the only other option was a head-down profile in an old Vector, the Strong made sense because of it's head-high attitude; it just made for better video and stills. None of that applies now with the Sigma; it's plenty easy to video and flies very flat. Anyone want to buy some nice Strongs?Chuck I agree with your current operational philosophy. While I hold three tandem instructor ratings and have worked at DZs that had more than one type of tandem rig, I now consider it dangerous to jump several different rigs during the same day. Mind you, many techniques from the good-old-days are now considered dangerous: no drogue, no Cypres, poised exits, holding students' hands, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #24 March 25, 2003 Quote Quote I have refused to get my Strong rating and never will. Why? Just courious... Gear design. Main and reserve canopies. Container design. The one advantage the Strong had over everyone else, drogue attachment location, was solved in the Sigma. Hook Also, cutting away on STRONG tandem rig automatically releases the drouge. I think it is a big advantage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #25 March 26, 2003 Quotecutting away on STRONG tandem rig automatically releases the drouge. Some Vectors and Eclispes have a third drogue release ripcord that goes through the cutaway handle, releasing the drogue in the event of a cutaway. So that isn't particular to Strongs. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
