AggieDave 6 #26 February 14, 2004 Rob, QuoteI'm not saying that your product has done that, I just don't think its really a safe idea. You missed that line. I never said that it HAS done anything, I said it has potential to and that I think it is an unsafe piece of gear for tandem skydiving. Its an opinion. You with a finacial intrest in the HandyCam will of course disagree with me, that's a given. I highly respect your opinion in this sport, I just happen to disagree with you here.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #27 February 14, 2004 wow, now that is scarry looking. But hey, whatever works for you. And Aggiedave, I understand you being freaked out by it. The cool thing is you DON'T have to do it. I don't think it's for just anyone. Time will tell if it's a good thing or bad.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverds 0 #28 February 14, 2004 efs4ever, Is your idea to have the student hold this thing? edit for spelling Skydive Radio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
efs4ever 3 #29 February 15, 2004 Uh, yes. The soft stick coming out of the bottom of a PC type video can easily be gripped in both hands. Nobody has ever dropped it.Russell M. Webb D 7014 Attorney at Law 713 385 5676 https://www.tdcparole.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #30 February 15, 2004 The Glove style would possibly be a better option for the student so they can help grab the toggles to practice the landings and things.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WayCool 0 #31 February 15, 2004 AggieDave your are fairly opinionated for someone with relatively low experience (especially 250 tandems) The Australian Parachuting Federation would require you to have double that experience before even allowing you to jump a Hand-Cam on a student tandem jump. QuoteThat never happens. Sometimes we have a student that has to wait for a different load so we can get them video, but if they want it, they get it! I've worked as a video/photo person and instructor on various DZs in various countries and have seen plenty of customers not get what they want due to lack of infrastructure. QuoteIf you're good at selling, then thats mostly a non-issue. Honestly, I really believe folks should get a video, I've yet to meet anyone who regretted getting video, although I know a lot of people that regretted NOT getting video. Why are there plenty of people you know who regret it if you are so good at selling? They won't regret it if you can still offer it to them after the jump even if they didn't want it before hand! Then you will find out how good you are at sales. You are very concerned about the safety of something that has already proven itself to be safe. (nice comment Rigger Rob) If your not up to it yet then don't do it. You might have a different idea when you have more experience. If our sport was governed by such narrow mindedness as yours, there would probably not even be tandem jumping! You might like to read this informative article by a very experienced tandem master.http://members.westnet.com.au/onlineair/Forms/handcams-article.pdf Oh yer, If putting across some opposing points to an discussion and helping with the spread of information on new techniques and products is considered advertising, maybe you should lobby that no more web site URLs be allowed on these forums. Stay Cool http://www.waycool.com.au Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #32 February 15, 2004 whew, he has a good point there...several of them.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #33 February 15, 2004 QuoteAggieDave your are fairly opinionated for someone with relatively low experience (especially 250 tandems) I'm not looking at it from an experience standpoint, I'm looking at it from an evaluative standpoint. Adding something else to the system, adding something else for the student to possibly grab and adding something that is attatched to the one thing that is needed to accomplish life saving steps. All in all, it just seems like a bad idea to me. QuoteWhy are there plenty of people you know who regret it if you are so good at selling? Firstly, never did I say I was good at selling or that I was even the person selling the video. I have basically nothing to do with that process. Students come to me having made that decision already, with what they want and what they pay at manifest. My comment about regretting not getting video comes from watching students watch other student's videos on the TVs around the DZ after their jump. Time and time again I hear "man, I wish I would have gotten video too..." QuoteIf your not up to it yet then don't do it. Nice challenge. Who knows if I'm up to it or not, if I could fly with one and still be safe at my level? All I know is that I have no desire to try with a tandem skydive. As I stated, overall I think the system is pretty cool, its something I wouldn't mind having for personal video, its not something I'm willing to risk having, adding another variable, to a tandem skydive. For me its about having the respect for my student, not to do something I don't have complete faith in.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #34 February 15, 2004 Oh, since you're probably not following the exact same thread in the S&T forum, I thought I'd post some of the information from there, here. This is from Tom Buchanan (an extremely experienced jumper/TM): QuoteI think it's a very bad idea. A camera adds a distraction, and a potential line snag point. I suppose it can be done with just a little more risk by some of the best tandem instructors, most of the time, but there will always be unexpected jumps when it increases risk, and many instructors can't handle any increase in workload or distraction. The only benefit to having a tandem instructor carry the camera is to save money by eliminating the camera flyer, or maximize profit by packing more tandems in an airplane. Those are crummy reasons to reduce the safety margins. Our students deserve the safest possible flight with the lowest risks we can provide. There is never a good reason to increase risk beyond that required for a basic tandem. For what it's worth, I have made about 1,000 tandems on the Strong, Racer, Vector, and Sigma rigs. Tom Buchanan Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem) S&TA Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Here's another one from Tom: QuoteSo imagine a radical spinning malfunction that requires both hands to pull the cutaway handle, resulting in a horrible unstable spinning cutaway and reserve deployment. I'd rather not have extra junk on my hands to reduce my pull ability, distract my mind, or snag lines. Those nasty spinners and hard pulls are rare, but they do happen. I've been there. I'd hate to be the first guy to catch that kind of fatality on video. That's just not very cool. Our students deserve better. Tom Buchanan Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem) S&TA Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy This one is from "lopullterri" (in response to the first quote from Tom). Although she's not a TM, she makes a good point: QuoteI agree with you 100%. My husband and I discussed this issue. He has over 1400 Tandems, I have approx. 600 tandem videos. The student deserves an instructor that is devoting all of their attention to the tandem experience and a video person who is devoting all of their attention to a good and safe video. Its a bad idea for another reason. If one instructor does it, the rest of the instructors at that DZ feel compelled to do the same...even if they aren't very experienced with tandems. It could push people into doing something that they have no business doing--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver51 0 #35 February 15, 2004 I have read the post in S&T and made a reply but won't repeat it here. I fly a camera but wouldn't care less if the ahndycam takes over. The only thing that really has me on edge is when the first fatality happens because of the handycam. Is it really worth the extra risk just because someone wants a video the day a camera flyer is there? (reschedule them) Is it worth it just for the extra bucks? Is it worth it to charge 10 or 20 dollars less? Is it worth it for the one or two cool frames verses a whole jump taken by a camera flyer? If the deaths of two people can be avoided shoulded we leave the videoing to the camera flyers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeremyneas 0 #36 February 15, 2004 Some people would argue that to just do a skydive invites all the risk you just mentioned. You sound like my wuffo neighbors educating me about skydiving. Good show!!! ... Bad Form Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tandemking 0 #37 February 15, 2004 I have to say a couple things about this thread I started; I am VERY greatful that this doesn't turn into a testosterone laced pissing contest between old has beens like over on rec.skydiving. I have gotten some very good opinions, both pro and con as to using a handycam type system. With some of the information I have recieved through your replies, and research I have done on my own, I believe I will give the handcam system a try this season. I operate a C-182 DZ and I have NO camera people available during the week. With my background in tandem (2500) and video, (500+), I feel I can shoot my own videos safely. I intend to use a side mount camera helmet with a Sony PC5 and the "handcam" on the back of my left hand. It is small and light and I don't feel it will interfer with my getting stable on exits. Yes, there will be an slightly elevated degree of risk, but compared to a lot of the other crazy things people do in our sport, this is negligable. I follow the skydiving scene world wide and have not seen the headline, "TM dies due to handycam problem". This of course does NOT mean that it can't happen, but I feel that I am not putting myself into any more danger with a handcam setup than I am on a "normal" tandem. Aggie Dave said that he never has a problem with slots at his DZ and having to re-arrange to get a video or tandem done. Out here in "Cessnaland", we have to do things a bit different and small DZO's like myself are always looking to add a little more to an already thin bottom line. Having a TM with a Handcam may just be the ticket to making a bit more profit. I appreciate all the responses and wish you all a safe skydiving season!!! Larry D-16806 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spottydog 0 #38 February 15, 2004 Handcam has become very popular with commercial Tandem only operations in Australia. From what I have seen most of these factories are charging the same price for handcam as having a real camera person do the job. The footage looks crap when compared to having a real camera flyer do the job. The camera is glove mounted, most likely on the hand used to take the passengers money. cheers, Spottydog Kiss my dogs arse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver51 0 #39 February 16, 2004 It's not just a skydive. It's a skydive with an innocent passenger along for the first jump thrill. When my step son, who I think of as a son, did his tandem, which I videoed, I wouldn't have wanted the tandem master to have any unnessary snag points. But if some one who is close to you does a tandem and it wouldn't bother you for the tandem master to have a handycam along then that's your choice. I'm not trying to educate you or anyone else, just stating my opinion. I would like, at all, reading of a fatility where two people were killed by a hang up on a handycam. Pure and simple. No need to compare me to your local whuffos. I've always been concerned about other peoples lifes, even if I don't know them, or if they are whuffos. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiveoc 0 #40 February 20, 2004 you guys can check some pics on our web site, www.skydiveoc.com for some hand cam action. pc 330 can capture 2mp stills and print out nice on the epson 2200 on 4x6. We can now sell v&s! i think all these guys against this system are paranoid camera flyers who need to get their tandem ratings! just kidding. we sell an ultimate package...hand cam and outside flyer for only $30 more. Now thats a cool b-roll! josh PS WILL ROB WARNER, RIGGER ROB PLEASE E-MAIL ME! I NEED ANOTHER GLOVE SKYDIVEOC@DROPZONE.COM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prost 0 #41 February 21, 2004 www.skydiveoc.com Here is a clicky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Markj 0 #42 February 22, 2004 Here is a video clip of a tandem shooting their own video.. Also it halarious!! have a look! http://www.punchbaby.com/media/gitfakt/clips/funny/Skydive.mpg M.J Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
