Misrouting the RSL

[riddler 0]

Take a look a the two pictures.

The first (RSL_bottom_ring) shows the RSL improperly connected to the bottom ring of the three-ring system. My thinking is that this is definitely not a good idea. However, if accidently connected in this way, a cutaway would still be allowed. It's possible (I think) that the RSL ring could interfere with the release, but the chance is low.

The second picture shows the RSL on the middle ring (the bottom ring of the actual riser). This is certainly trouble - if a cutaway happens with this configuration, the RSL connection band would wrap around the bottom ring, and not allow the riser to come off. If you're lucky, the band might break, but most likely, you will be suspended by your riser on this side.

Any thoughts and/or opinions?

The reason that I'm asking is that my coach evaluator had the RSL (intentionally) set on the bottom ring (the first picture), with the goal of my catching this problem and fixing it. I did catch it, but I told the student that it would still work. The evaluator felt that it would definitely prevent the cutaway. Obviously, my evaluator is correct about one thing - we need to let the student know that either configuration is bad - don't do it. But I would like to know - the first picture would most likely still allow a cutaway - correct?

[hookitt 1]

It's possible the middle ring would pass through. But under tension, the fulcrum of the middle ring is very low, and it is very High on the large ring. Since that is the case, it will not drop down into the large ring far enough to slide through . Remove the tension and you can pass the middle ring through the larger ring. In other words it can be disassembled in that configuration but in a cutaway situation it would Very likely hang.


Hook it up that way on your rig and pull the cutaway cable out on that side. Then pull on the riser and see what happens when ring tries to flip through . with out tension it can pass through. Now hang from it and try the same thing.

Tell you know who to give me a call ;)

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[rigging65 0]

The tolerances on ring assemblies are pretty tight, I would be surprised if the middle ring would rotate through without getting caught up. Metal-on-metal contact has a way of binding stuff in position pretty well.

Ok, to confirm my own thoughts I just went and tried the setup back in the loft. Twice out of five times the ring bound up. My guess is that with more pressure (load) the ratio would be even worse...

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Hooknswoop 19]

I just did exactly that, with mini-rings, brass and stainless shackles. The brass shackle is larger than the SS shackle.

I was able to pull the SS shackle through when connected to the large, middle AND small rings. I was able to pull the brass shackle through when connected to the large and medium rings, but NOT the small ring.

I could see the shackle slowing down the release or even preventing a release in a low-drag malfunction situation. I would definately not recommend hooking up the RSL shackle to any of the 3-rings. It is a testament to the design of the 3-ring that it still worked, in my tests, even witht he RSL shackle connected to the large or middle rings.

Hook

[hookitt 1]

Hey hook, did you do that under a load?

I'll try this when I get home tonight.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[beemertec 0]

Just out of curiosity, where on the bottom ring was the RSL when you tested it. I may be wrong but I would think in the air the middle ring would be more likely to bind because the RSL may ride higher on the bottom ring due to air pushing up on it in freefall or having it move when deploying the main.
I do not claim to have a clue what I am talking about, but I was just wondering if you thought this would make matters worse.

Blue Skies
Steve
Ok, so it's pink, but I'm secure in my manhood, and I still look cool coming in under it!

[riddler 0]

Quote

The tolerances ..

I should also point out that the rig had a regular (large) three-ring setup. My pics are of my own rig, which has only mini-rings. Large three-rings have less chance of getting caught up than minis?

[hookitt 1]

I still say it's pink, but you have a valid point. I'll mess around with it tonight.

hook and rigging may have time to try it but if not I'll check it later.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

did you do that under a load?

No, I just connected the shackle and pulled the riser off the large ring. The times it binded a bit, harder pulling caused it to release. Not very scientific, and definately not recommended to connect anything to the 3-rings.

Hook

[hookitt 1]

Sure it could work. But who knows about consistancy.

With the RW1 you can actually hook up 2 mini risers on one ring and it will release just fine.

(please don't get any ideas )

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Danl 0]

I'm not a rigger, but it looks to me that in the bottom ring case, you have a good chance to cut away successfully.

However, you have zero chance of the RSL pulling the reserve.

Blue skies and home brews,

Dan'l

[ERICCONNELLY 0]

My 2 cents

I'd say he's probably correct enough in his judgement. Maybe it would work. Seems iffy.

Like telling someone with a bag lock it's ok to pull silver without a cutaway - sure it might work some of the time but it's the WRONG thing to do.

Keep it simple for the students - (remember how overloaded you were with 10 jumps?)
This is right - That is wrong. Wrong can kill you.

[hookitt 1]

Ok, I tried it about 17 times. Sure enough it released every time. It simply pushed the stainless snap shackle out of the way. The RW8 had plenty of room to accomodate the snapshackle and the ring. Not a great test but it worked on the ground. I did not have the larger brass snap shackle to try it with.

I just proved myself wrong. It's still possible to hang up but each test didn't even slow the release down a bit.

Now for the obligatory disclaimer: don't do this in a live environment. It could result in serious injury or even death.

This comment ==>This is right - That is wrong. Wrong can kill you is a pretty good one. I have yet to word it that way but the point is the same.

Interesting question Riddler. I would have never thought to try it other wise.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[petur 0]

Could you please post a similar photo of a properly connected RSL?

---
P.
"It Hurts to Admit When You Make Mistakes -
But When They're Big Enough, the Pain Only Lasts a Second."

[Faber 0]

i would say if you dont want the RLS on then set in on the housting wire from the cutawaycapel,there it will not interfear whith 3ringrealese.

ive athached 2 pics of my 3ring(its Atom=French,thats why it looks wired).
I have no RLS but when just got it it had,i placed it at my softhoustings(you can see at pic)

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[rigging65 0]

Quote

Just out of curiosity, where on the bottom ring was the RSL when you tested it. I may be wrong but I would think in the air the middle ring would be more likely to bind because the RSL may ride higher on the bottom ring due to air pushing up on it in freefall or having it move when deploying the main.
I do not claim to have a clue what I am talking about, but I was just wondering if you thought this would make matters worse.

I don't think airflow is going to make much difference in the position of the shackle. Besides, at best, its just going to flop around in a more or less random manner, which could make it better or worse. I think the key here is that it may lock up regardless of what position you have it in.

This has been discussed on the NG before, but we're always trying to stack the deck in our favor when we're skydiving. Now, I realize that no-one would ever intentionally jump a rig set up like this (well, most wouldn't), but in the event that someone did it by accident and had a cutaway, I give them better than even odds of getting out of it ok...of course if they don't....

Another interesting idea: Will the RSL fire, if misrigged in this configuration? So far we've only looked at the cutaway portion. I think, depending on what load you want to assign to a releasing main canopy, that a non-velcro or short velcro RSL (Infinity, Talon, Reflex) would probably make it out ok.

I don't think that long-velcro RSLs (Jav, some retro-fits) would do as well. Sheer-pull is where velcro does it's best work, and a long sheer pull like on a Jav would be a lot to overcome...especially if you don't assign much drag to the main (ie - streamer, etc).

We play with misrigs quite a bit here, just working ideas out and trying stuff, but what most people don't recognize is the extreme amount of drag produced by your main as you cut it away...there's a lot of force there. Maybe not enough to "fix" any problem, but more than most think!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Take a look a the two pictures.

The first (RSL_bottom_ring) shows the RSL improperly connected to the bottom ring of the three-ring system. My thinking is that this is definitely not a good idea. However, if accidently connected in this way, a cutaway would still be allowed. It's possible (I think) that the RSL ring could interfere with the release, but the chance is low.

----------------------------------------------------------
Several years ago a rig slipped out of our loft with the RSL connected to the large (RW8 harness) ring. When the customer complained loudly that the miss-rig had escaped two gear checks by her and her AFF/I boyfriend, I tested that configuration in the loft. I was never able to make it jam on the ground.

------------------------------------------------------------
The second picture shows the RSL on the middle ring (the bottom ring of the actual riser). This is certainly trouble - if a cutaway happens with this configuration, the RSL connection band would wrap around the bottom ring, and not allow the riser to come off. If you're lucky, the band might break, but most likely, you will be suspended by your riser on this side.

Any thoughts and/or opinions?

------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, connecting the RSL to the middle ring is liable to create problems.

------------------------------------------------------------

The reason that I'm asking is that my coach evaluator had the RSL (intentionally) set on the bottom ring (the first picture), with the goal of my catching this problem and fixing it. I did catch it, but I told the student that it would still work. The evaluator felt that it would definitely prevent the cutaway. Obviously, my evaluator is correct about one thing - we need to let the student know that either configuration is bad - don't do it. But I would like to know - the first picture would most likely still allow a cutaway - correct?

-----------------------------------------------------------

This reminds me of a gear check point (miss-routed cutaway housing) that I missed during an AFF Evaluation Course. When I later queried a past-president of 3-Ring Inc. (Sandy Reid) he replied "that's bull sh*t!"
Instructor evaluators sometimes get over jealous about gear checks.

As for your final point, junior jumpers should be told that there are two ways to assemble gear: the right way and the wrong way. There are no grey areas. All examples of "wrong" assembly should be pointed out to an instructor/coach/rigger before boarding the airplane.