Jump numbers and cameras

[ockers 0]

I would like to stir up a bit of debate here….

What is so wrong with strapping a camera on the side of your head at 100 jumps plus?? I’m not talking about trying to video tandems or AFF, just jumping with a video camera to record your jumps.

I know you US guys don’t get to C before 200 jumps. Here in Oz, with CI approval, we are good to go after C licence, i.e. 100 jumps plus star crests and landing accuracy. (The star crest requirement is specific to our DZ). Just to engage in RW with tandems our DZ stipulates minimum 500 jumps with 200 RW jumps in the last year plus CI/TM approval.

I picked up my new helmet on Saturday, (Cheers Cameron!!). Check out http://www.fibrezonecomposites.com/helmets.htm for the coolest camera helmets ever. Custom made for my HC20 too, awesome.

In went the camera, out came the jump ticket and off we went. ‘We’ being me and the Mrs. Nothing complicated, just a 2 way RW jump, no wings just a rel suit, no sticky out bits on the helmet, no ring sight, no marks on goggles, just the camera. No focus on filming, the camera just recorded what it saw. Went on later in the day to do some 4 ways on the same basis. Even from a view inside the formation, it was still a useful debrief aid and diary of my jumps. Sunday, I put my hand up for someone’s Star Crest. The load organiser asked if I would try and video, (Yes he is fully aware of my experience, or rather lack of it, jump numbers and camera). I flew the camera slot and it came out pretty well, sure, I was a bit far away, but close enough to provide an accurate record for debrief. Truthfully, I didn’t want to be closer and was just happy watching the formation build.

There is obviously some fear from existing professional camera flyers that their jobs are at risk from all these upstarts, one guy at our DZ got some proper stick for taking a couple of camera jobs this weekend!

If you are a competent flier, what is so wrong with recording what we love so much??

Thoughts?

[AggieDave 6]

I have a PC-105 I put on my head for shits and giggles. I shoot exactly ZERO paid videos, ZERO tandem videos and ZERO "real" videos. All I have it for is for fun.

I put it on my head at just a hair under 1000 jumps, thank god I waited that long.

Even though you say you won't fly to get the shot, you'll still try. Its a huge distraction, it adds complication to your emergancy proceedures and its another very distracting piece of gear pushing at you to make you forget something important (like alitude awareness, goggles, alitmeters, situational awareness, etc).

I know that jumpers with 100 jumps sometimes feel like they can do it and they know whats going on, lord knows I was like that at 100 and 200 and 300...well, you get the point, I have nearly 1400 jumps now and I only now feel like I'm really and truely starting to really learn whats going on.

Think of jumping with a camera kinda like driving with a cell phone to your ear. Most folks aren't good at it. Someone with 100 jumps is basically like someone that turned 16 and got their license an 90 minutes ago having never driven before. Do you want them driving next to you on their cell phone? I sure as hell don't. I also don't want that person to hurt themselves.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[freethefly 6]

I started jumping a camera with just over 50 jumps back in 1997. A factory diver with a sony trv60 on it. My one and only reserve ride (pilot chute in tow) was that December after doing video for a three way. I had less than 100 jumps. At no time did the gear on my head interfere with my emergency procedures. As far as jump numbers and cameras go I believe it depends on the jumper.
Currently I am jumping a bonehead with miniDV and a Pentax 645 medium format. I spent a week going over emergency procedures before jumping it. In freefall on my belly it felt great. Next jump was a sitfly. Felt great. Headdown, barely noticed it was on my head. There are , as with any camera set up, snag points. I am fully prepare to send my cameras to a shattering death if need be. Better my cameras die than myself.
I would not have attempted flying such a camera in 1997 nor would I suggest that someone with low numbers jump such a setup as mine. I do suggest that if one wants to fly with video or stills when it is fun jumps you want to preserve is to get a side mount for a miniDV and maybe a front platform for an Elph. The majority of jumpers just want to capture something to show their non jumping friends. If a jumper fully understand that cameras add a new element to the jump they should learn what needs to be known. Talk to other camera flyers, safety and training advisor and the DZO. It is all about learning.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[br0k3n 0]

My two cents,

I was the same, soon as I had my C I wanted to strap a camera to my head, not interested in shooting tandems etc just a flight recorder.

And that is exactly what I did…

I now have jumped 150 times with my camera, out of those 150 none have been specific camera jumps where I have filmed a formation or a jump, on every jump it has purely been there as a flight recorder.

The first 20 / 30 jumps or so I was aware of the camera and at time found myself trying to get a particular shot, and as AggieD points out it is a distraction, even though you might not think it.

However (and I guess everyone is different) in all the camera jumps I have done, never has there been a moment where the fact I have had a camera has caused a situation to arise that has been dangerous to others or myself. I always know the jump, my altitude, the run in direction etc etc etc…..

Yes there have been times that I have jumped to get a specific shot, and in those cases the jump and the shot were planned and everyone involved knew what was happening. I think the risk arises when you decide on a shot during a jump and become distracted because of it.

I guess the issue (in Australia) is that once you have a C licence you can strap on a camera, however until you have your D you have to have and RSL attached hooked up, and the two don’t mix very well.

Maybe 1000 jumps before you put a camera on is a little on the cautious side, but just beware of what you are doing and don’t get distracted.

-Oli

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[quade 4]

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What is so wrong with strapping a camera on the side of your head at 100 jumps plus??

What's so right about it?

Seriously, what's the rush? What's the burning need? You have practically your entire jumping career to jump camera, but those first 200 or so jumps are the foundation of alot of learning experiences. By dividing your attention between camera and those experiences, you'll probably gain a slight bit in jumping camera, but you'll be denying yourself quite a bit in the other experiences -- focus mostly (sorry, a pun, but it had to be said).

Keep jumping camera and you'll find out that it's going to take maybe 200 or so camera jumps just to suck . . . maybe even 2000 (I still suck sometimes).

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There is obviously some fear from existing professional camera flyers that their jobs are at risk from all these upstarts, one guy at our DZ got some proper stick for taking a couple of camera jobs this weekend!

Not from me. If you think you can swoop my slot . . . give it a shot.

The most basic problem I have with a newbie strapping on a camera is that they probably haven't learned enough survival and basic flying skills.

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If you are a competent flier, what is so wrong with recording what we love so much??

I suppose if you could prove to me that you are in fact within what I'd expect of a jumper with twice the jump experience . . . I'd think it would be OK, but I also think it would be a -very- exceptional individual.

I fully agree with the USPA guidelines on experience before jumping camera, but I'd also allow some leeway. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be 50% though in 99% of the cases.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lewmonst 0]

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What is so wrong with strapping a camera on the side of your head at 100 jumps plus??

Here we go again... do a search. Talk to more experienced cameraflyers. Read up on the fatalities related to camera jumps.

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What's so right about it?

Seriously, what's the rush? What's the burning need? You have practically your entire jumping career to jump camera, but those first 200 or so jumps are the foundation of alot of learning experiences. By dividing your attention between camera and those experiences, you'll probably gain a slight bit in jumping camera, but you'll be denying yourself quite a bit in the other experiences -- focus mostly (sorry, a pun, but it had to be said).

Agreed.

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Keep jumping camera and you'll find out that it's going to take maybe 200 or so camera jumps just to suck . . . maybe even 2000 (I still suck sometimes).

Yeah he does still suck sometimes.

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***
There is obviously some fear from existing professional camera flyers that their jobs are at risk from all these upstarts, one guy at our DZ got some proper stick for taking a couple of camera jobs this weekend!

Um, no. Bring it on.

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Not from me. If you think you can swoop my slot . . . give it a shot.

The most basic problem I have with a newbie strapping on a camera is that they probably haven't learned enough survival and basic flying skills.

Agreed.

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***
If you are a competent flier, what is so wrong with recording what we love so much??

Well, you take on many new risks, to yourself and to others. You also risk loosing the respect of those around you. As with all skydiving, you should not take on a new risk without the approval, support and guidance of the more experienced jumpers around you. Would the majority of highly experienced jumpers (especially instructors and dz staff) condone your choice to add this risk? If so, maybe you are a 100-jump-wonder who will get lucky and get through the next 200 jumps with a camera unscathed. If not, you will likely lose the respect of those jumpers who do not think you're ready, who will then in turn likely not offer you the guidance that you need. If you asked me for guidance, I would gladly teach you everything I know. If you're not safe, I won't want to jump with you.
***
I suppose if you could prove to me that you are in fact within what I'd expect of a jumper with twice the jump experience . . . I'd think it would be OK, but I also think it would be a -very- exceptional individual.

I fully agree with the USPA guidelines on experience before jumping camera, but I'd also allow some leeway. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be 50% though in 99% of the cases.

Agreed.

Basically these forums aren't the place for your personal debate. You should sit down and talk with other cameraflyers at your dropzone. You should talk to all the instructors, managers, S&TA and DZO. Seriously.

If you ever come to Perris, you could get a lot of guidance. I bet Quade would join me and take you under our wing (get it?) and teach you everything we know. Hell I bet LTdiver, crazylarry, the cameraflyers for the school and O'B would too. We are not afraid of competition here, we support and learn from eachother.

peace
lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[Kjeld 0]

Thank god there are more experienced camerapeople with common sense.

I would like to add 1 more thing:
We are focusing on surviving camerajumps. But hey Ockers, focus on the accidents that students have. Once you can say to yourself that you are not going to make particular student mistakes then you are ready to start with camerajumping. Can you?

When I had about 250 jumps I asked one of my highly experienced friends at what amount of experience skydiving becomes safe. He replied to me that it never will. At the time I thought that was an odd answer, but when I had 500 jumps I looked back and realized that I knew almost nothing at the time. I came to the same conclusions at 1000 jumps when I compared that to 500 jumps. And it continues and continues. You will always be a student, but having a solid base of student experience helps a lot discovering this without leaving the process to early.

To cut it short:
The experienced people who warn you are not afraid of losing their job. Most of them have proven themselves already. Working in a environment with competition improves everybody's work and a true cameraman loves nice work anyway, even if it's not his own. They also love the sky, but they hate it when somebody dies of stupidity that could have been prevented. So listen to these folks for your own good.

[StefB 0]

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There is obviously some fear from existing professional camera flyers that their jobs are at risk from all these upstarts, one guy at our DZ got some proper stick for taking a couple of camera jobs this weekend!

I don't agree with that. There is a constant need for camera flyers. But straping cameras to 100-jump wonders doesn't help.

I observe:

"Often they do camera for some funjumps but they disappear when the hard work calls". This is OK for me, but please do not pick the cherries from our cake. But this is not specific to 100 jumps or 1000 jumps.

"The video quality from upstarters sucks". This is natural. Camera flying requires both flying and camera skills. Maybe your regular camera guy thought bad quality videos from a newbie give bad reputation to the DZ camera business?

Stefan

[jimoke 0]

time for a little story.......I was you.......I had to mount a vhs-c camera to my pro-tec helmet .....around 165 jumps. I knew what I was doing......I was a competant flyer......I was awesome
(wasn't I ?).....after a few close calls and a lot of bad footage......mostly because not as good as I had hoped. around 350 jumps I was dialed in.......(wasn't I?). I could film some one upside down as they deployed their canopy.......wow I have arrived......now I really am good. flip onto my belly to pull wow the ground seems awfully close..... ok theres my main.......CA- Chink ....... wow my cypres does work......hey my reserve is orange....shit ......shit........shit.......What am I supposed to do with a side by side? oh no.........downplane.....cut away.....turned on final........landed fine. wow I must be good.

I have about 2000 more camera jumps now, still trying to stay alive every time.

adding a camera is a big thing, even a small camera.
nobody here or anywhere can stop you from flying camera, don't let my story discourage you from jumping camera, just keep in mind you only have a couple jumps

The ground always, remembers where you are!

[diablopilot 2]

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What is so wrong with strapping a camera on the side of your head at 100 jumps

If you are a competent flier, what is so wrong with recording what we love so much??

Because no one is a "competent flyer" at 100 jumps.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[CornishChris 5]

I did my first camera jumps this weekend at 220 jumps.

It is worth remembering that from the point of view of someone who doesn't frequent DZ.com then looking at the local regs is a useful way of determining what is deemed safe. And as people here are keen to tell you - ask around at the DZ.

For example, no one in Oz can attempt to Freefly until they have a B License - 50 jumps including relative progression, 3 free build four ways and landing accuracy. Free flying adds extra speed, extra dangers and extra complications to a jump so this would seem fairly sensible.

From an Aussies point of view one is not allowed to jump a camera until they have a C license which at absolute minimum is 100 jumps, B- license reqs and landing accuracies. The Australian Parachute Federation has deemed that a person of this level can jump a camera so from a newbies point of view, in Oz that is the benchmark.

So should someone jump camera at 100 jumps? Its not compulsary but under our regs you can if you want to, and have the required license. Will it fuck you up - as with anything, hopefully not but it is an added risk.

Is the advice of people on DZ.com better than the APF regs - your call personally.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[br0k3n 0]

This is interesting if you search the Skydiving Fatalities Query Engine for camera related deaths then out of 545 incidents since 1995, 5 have been related.

Of those 5 fatalities 4 had over 2000 jumps and one had over 4300.

http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=12%2F14%2F1995&MaxDate=10%2F30%2F2004&Place=&State=&Country=&Category=&MinAge=17&MaxAge=78&UnknownAge=on&MinJumps=0&MaxJumps=15000&UnknownJumps=on&AAD=&RSL=&Description=camera&DescriptionOperator=OR&Lessons=camera&LessonsOperator=OR

So is it really that bad to strap a camera to your head with a 100 jumps?

As CJP pointed out the APF don't seem to think so.

So Ockers its your call dude...

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[quade 4]

Funny how different people can look at the same data and come to different conclusions.

I'd look at the data this way . . . even though those people had a LOT of jumps . . . the camera did them in . . . so what chance does a newbie have?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[br0k3n 0]

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Funny how different people can look at the same data and come to different conclusions.

I'd look at the data this way . . . even though those people had a LOT of jumps . . . the camera did them in . . . so what chance does a newbie have?

True, true.....

I guess there are several ways to you can look at this, what chance do the newbs have? what chance to the experienced have? in fact what chance does anyone have......

At the end of the day the fact is that there have been 5 fatal incidents in the last 9 years as a result of flying a camera, all by experienced jumpers. If newbies where that much of a risk then why have there been no recorded incidents??? Thats all im saying.

Im not trying to say go fly camera as soon as you can there is no risk, of course there is.

But I dont think the risk is as great as people here trying to make out. If it is please provide the evidence, not opinions.

Im feeling argumentative today, if you hadn't noticed

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[ltdiver 3]

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If newbies where that much of a risk then why have there been no recorded incidents??? Thats all im saying.

Two reasons.

1) camera helmets and cameras being lighter and more common is a fairly new addition to our sport. It used to be only the strong necked and innovative carved this discipline into their resume.

2) perhaps we've been successful in protecting the newbies from getting in over their head at the start of this venture. I hope so. And I hope they learn from those who have gone before them that this gig can rear up and bite you in the butt in a mere fraction of a second.

Learn, be prepared, be safe. That can be said for all new endeavors.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[br0k3n 0]

1) camera helmets and cameras being lighter and more common is a fairly new addition to our sport. It used to be only the strong necked and innovative carved this discipline into their resume.

[Danger 0]

No deaths due to inexperience with a camera? A totally false statement.

Jumper in Canada with less than 500 jumps died filming another skydiver. Deceased jumper was new to video and lost track of altitude when the person he was filming opened lower than planned.

This happened last year.

Danger

[StefB 0]

Smaller cams and video helmets bring up other safety issues. E.g. one FF jump with camera, then another without but with the same helmet but without cam... And there is a lot more filming in formation loads now ("the flight recorder mentality"). And AFF instructors with helmet cam and tandem pilots with handycam. Remember the incident when the empty cam bracket smashed a fellow freeflyers face? Light video equipment doesn't mean no problems there.

Stefan

[ltdiver 3]

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Light video equipment doesn't mean no problems there.

Never said it didn't.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[oldgit 0]

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This is a good point, not just lighter but a lot smaller. These days wearing a Pc105 or similar size camera in a custom fibre glass mount is nothing like having an old VHS camcorder strapped to you head. Therefore increasing the safety aspect, by having a lighter load on the head and neck, and reducing the snag hazard.

Bollocks
The dangers from jumping camera have very little to do with weight & camera size.
It’s to do with ability and skill.
Whether you are using the camera as a flight recorder (no such thing everyone tries for the shot) or trying to get planed footage you still are using brain cells that up until then are used to keep you alive.
Instead of looking at the fatalities think about all the near misses I am sure you all have seen them.
I have seen a few new camera people get them selves into very dangerous situations and only by pure luck (not ability) did it not end with a disastrous outcome.
John

[StevePhelps 0]

I've jumped level one demos for a while -- but today I'm jumping into a big stadium. I was tempted to wear my camera and just "record" the jump. I'm a tandem/aff vidiot and I know as much as think I could just record the jump, I would be trying for the shot. For me, its not worth it. Jumping into a big stadium with just over 500 jumps and a new PRO rating will take all my concentration. Adding a camera to the mix is a recipe for trouble ... right now. There will become a time when that is easier ... I'll wait, just as guys below 200/300 jumps should wait before they strap a camera to their head.

JUST MY OPINION.

[Praetorian 1]

***Instead of looking at the fatalities think about all the near misses I am sure you all have seen them.
I have seen a few new camera people get them selves into very dangerous situations and only by pure luck (not ability) did it not end with a disastrous outcome.***


Um .. not to get myself in trouble here but with my low time in the sport, NO I havn't seen a lot of near misses .. could you (briefly) tell any of these stories low or high jump numbers I think they would be useful to those of us who lurk here till we have the numbers to strap on cameras always tempted to start early, and to everyone with higher numbers who may not have seen or thought about the type of incedients that you (and others) might have seen

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[freethefly 6]

I just went on 8 years in the sport ( had to lay off for three of those eight but still stayed informed). I have yet to see anyone have a serious incidence soley because of a dv camera or a still camera. I will not say that it does not happen though. As with any aspect of our sport, serious thought should be given when considering flying with a camera. I had an incident last july 5 after a demo into a large airshow. The demo went off as planned. We packed and flew back to our home dz. As I deployed over the home dz at 4000' I experianced line twist from top to bottom. The leftside riser twisted down onto my d-box pinning my head to my right shoulder as the canopy, sabre 150, began a swift spiral. I worked my head from the riser twist before 2000' and spun out of the rest of the twist. I was prepared to cut my helmet by 1800' if need be. On the ground I barely made mention of what happened. I would assume that this is the case with others when they encounter a problem that afterward it seems to have been merely an inconvienence. Other than that, no other problem with camera gear. My incident could have easily blown into a major problem (the canopy, from what I could see, appeared to be more a ball of flapping fabric than a canopy). At what number should a jumper start camera flying? That is hard to say. Had I just one camera jump instead of 400 would the problem I encountered have turned out different? Maybe, maybe not. I believe at the end of the day it it is the knowledge you take with you on each jump, whether it is with a camera or without, that increases your chance of survival.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[br0k3n 0]

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Bollocks
The dangers from jumping camera have very little to do with weight & camera size.***

Your living in a fantasy world, how can you possible believe that jumping, say Tom Sanders set up is just as dangerous as a pc105 mounted to your helmet


***Whether you are using the camera as a flight recorder (no such thing everyone tries for the shot)

In your words BOLLOCKS, I think at first there is the tendency to "try and get the shot" but once you are over that it is quite simple to just ignore the fact you are wearing a camera, I know I am quite capable of doing this, and im sure im not the only person.


*** you still are using brain cells that up until then are used to keep you alive.

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Im not speaking for everyone here, but I and im sure most people are quite capable of doing more then one thing at once, and are not that short in the brain cell department.... Lets not try to get carried away here in some unnecessary sensationalising or our sport or camera flying. The average human being has more then enough “brain cells” to be able to jump camera.

Instead of looking at the fatalities think about all the near misses I am sure you all have seen them.

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Yes I have seen things that could have resulted in injury or possible worse, but none as a result of a person wearing a camera. Maybe it is different at your DZ.

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

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[PhreeZone 20]

There were 3 deaths in one year of camera flyers. 1 from a line getting snagged around a ring sight, 1 from getting the reserve bridle snagged on her still camera and then another one where the lines entangled with part of the helmet. 3 deaths in 2001 alone because of cameras... thats a serious incidence if there is one.

Here are a few more incidents directly involving "just a camera helmet"

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While videoing a 2-way CRW jump, a wrap occured at about 4000' between the camera flyer and another dive participant. The deceased cutaway, but the slider stowed behind his head became caught on part of his camera helmet and thus his main failed to seperate. The reserve became entangled with the main and he hit the ground hard. He was alert and concious that evening, but died of internal injuries the next morning while in surgery.

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After filming an RW jump, this jumper's main pilot chute became entangled in his camera gear. He cutaway the main, but it remained tangled with the helmet. Reserve deployment was initiated, but it entangled with the main.

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It appears the jumper who was new to using a camera was filiming another jumpers deployment, who may have deployed or opened at a minimum altitude. The jumper filming was seen to deploy under 1000ft and the canopy snivelled until impact. The jumper was not equipped with an AAD

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