Zoter 0 #26 November 9, 2004 Wouldnt another avenue of advice given to new camera jumpers be education on the typeof equipment jumped ........as opposed to what seems to be a fairly stock answer ......jumping a camera is dangerous, dont do it...... Im sure alot of camera setups are alot more 'dangerous' than others..... I am one of those 'newbie' camera jumpers just about to start out.....I have spent considerable time , talking with cam jumpers as well as researching to ensure I have as 'safe' a system as I can get as a beginner. Of course strapping a cam to your head instantly ups the risk ante....irrespective of 'what' it is there are other safety issues involved......but us newbies dont hear alot in the way 'what type' of system are you planning to use?........surely it must make some considerable difference? Should beginners be restricted in exactly what they can strap on their head .....with the same importance levied as to when they are allowed to strap something to their head ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #27 November 9, 2004 I have read so much on this and seen the argument so many times I feel like just saying fuck it, jump it and stop bothering me. The thing is, I do not want you in the air anywhere around me. The simple fact is that a camera can be a distraction at any level of experiece but these distractioins get magnified by the fact that at 100 jumps or 125 jumps you are simply not that gerat of a skydiver. You lack the ability to make sure you are always where you are supposed to be and when you are concentrating on that so hard you may miss other things going on. Straight up though, under 200 jumps you will not be flying a camera at my dz. ~Chachi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #28 November 9, 2004 I did at 100 and have never gotten myself into a bad situation. That was 800 jumps ago and 7 years ago. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #29 November 9, 2004 I find it fairly interesting that most of the people arguing for jumping camera with low jump numbers are people that have low jump numbers. OK, here are a few simple truths: 1. You may think you will not start concentrating on filming but after half a dozen camera jumps or more you will really start looking for better video content. Which means you will stop concentrating on altitude and placement of you and everyone else in the skydive. 2. At 100 or 200 jumps your internal clock is not that great, especially if your freeflying so when you are now paying attention to video content and not looking at your altimeter as much your loosing track of your altitude all together. 3. Weather you know it or not anytime you add gear you are upping the anti in an emergency situation. Yes, I know you do not think so and you will not until your in an emergency and are in over your head. Just ask the 3 people who died in 2001. But hey at 200 or so jumps you know everything Anyways so don’t listen to your piers. Hell might as well get a really small high performance canopy while you’re at it. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #30 November 9, 2004 Also this one from 1998: An experienced jumper gave his mother a tandem for Christmas. He filmed it. At pull time he found himself "next to the drogue". He hit the deploying main and became wrapped in it. He worked his way out of the mess but snagged a line with his foot. As he fell clear, the line broke and he hit the Tandem pair. He continued in freefall and deployed his main. He landed safely. The tandem master and possibly the passenger were knocked out. The tandem slowly spun into the ground. The Tandem Master is alive and in the hospital. The passenger (mother) was killed. Colliding with the subject you are filming is a very, very serious error. Everything which occured after this point is only a consequence of that error. -- While this incident happened with a tandem, it could happen on any camera jump where the intention is to film the opening - a very common request from the people we jump with. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merkur 1 #31 November 9, 2004 Interesting and often repeated question in this forum! First of all, I do not jump a camera (even if I it sometimes is glued to my hand on the ground) and right now just start thinking about it. From my point of view, jumping with a camera, or better the dangers attached to it, come from several points: a) Flying skill: A point hardly mentioned before in this thread. Do you think you are able to fly your body to any position you want to be. Or better can you fly yourself immediately out of dangerous situations. It's not just the camera guy who thinks about the good shot. Often enough it's the jumpers around him/her who want to look good on the video and therefore do sometimes unpredictable maneuvers - can you "outfly" them? b) additional equipment and weight: mentioned before. at least for a couple of jumps a distraction. Comes back as a distraction in your first malfunction. c) getting the shot: We heard both opinions here and I think one will always try to get a good shot. This goes hand in hand with peer pressure (yeah, yeah - all others except myself are so cool that they can handle it each time). When all of your videos suck and you get all the nasty comments - you try to get a good shot. Another example of a camera related incident: A low jump number video guy filmed a 8 way freefly jump (lets call it 8 way Zoo dive freefly attempt) in which one jumper had a deployment 5 seconds after exit due to a rig which suposingly wasn't meant to freefly. The video guy experienced is first near miss as he was rushing past the opening sequence in a distance of about 10 feet. All the jumpers in this dive just found it funny (we are so cool) I just was scared. Don't misunderstand this. An experienced Camera flyer probably also wouldn't have had the chance to get more distance inbetween - but he/she probably wouldn't have participated in that dive in first place. stay safe and have fun M.vSCR No.94 Don't dream your life - live your dream! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #32 November 9, 2004 Boom.....I think a couple of you here completely missed the point of my last post..... As thats the case I guess I must have put it across wrong ... I was throwing something out there of.....what about WHAT equipment a new cam flyer should be allowed to use to help minimise the risk equipment related problems flying with a camera helmet... All's I wanted to put across was that often doesnt even get a mention.......and thought it should... Would a Batrack with a 'bare' mounted stills and two camcorders present any more of a 'equipment' related risk to a new jumper than a low profile, completely covered single mount camcorder...? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vdschoor 0 #33 November 9, 2004 This is my opinion... please read it as that. A new camera jumper with a full setup is more of a hazard than a new camera jumper with just 1 item on their head. Why? Because this jumper now has even more to think about. Only change / add 1 thing at a time, once you are comfortable with what you are doing and you have your routine down. For me I only started jumping with a flash a little while ago, this was adding something new to the mix and I had to adjust my "getting ready" procedures for that. Normally it is turning on the camera when the plane turns on jumprun (this is after I made sure everything is ok somewhere on the ride up) and hitting record when I am about to climb out. With stills I turn the camera on before I put the helmet on my head, and then from there on it's the normal procedure for the video camera. All these things change constantly, now that I've added the flash, I turn that on, check the settings, turn on my still camera, put on the helmet, etc.. Before and after I do all this I check my skydiving equipment, touch all the handles, make sure my camera wings are securely attached, etc. There is just a lot beeing added to the mix every time, so the simpler your setup is when you start, the safer it becomes, and I am not even talking about snagpoints and things like that, just the equipment you put on your head. As a new jumper you have way too much thinking to do about all the other things to even start thinking about adding a camera to the mix. I see people stressing out on jumprun because something is wrong with the camera, the light doesn't come on, whatever it can be.. A VERY important thing to do before strapping any equipment on your head is to play around with it on the ground, know your equipment before taking it on a skydive. What use is it if your camera is setup wrong, wrong shutterspeed, wrong focal length on your lens, wrong ISO speed etc.. Also, if there is something weird going on, you're not stressing out immediately, you know that you're out of tape, or you know your battery is low, because you know your equipment. Jump numbers do matter in all of this, people can claim it doesn't but it does. Most people are a lot calmer after a couple hundred current jumps than after a couple hundred very uncurrent jumps. If you're relaxed on jumprun, and not all worked up because you're about to jump out of an airplane, it's easier to deal with issues that your cameragear might be causing. That is one of the reasons I usually don't strap on my camera helmet when I try out new things, cause then I need to focus on the new things in the mix, instead of having to think about getting decent video. Just my 2 cts.. Iwan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StefB 0 #34 November 10, 2004 "Don't do it" is wrong. Do it safe! Today you can get advices/informations from many places e.g. from your local camera guys and S&TAs, Mr. Waldons book, camera work instruction courses, helmet manufacturers, tandem rig manufacturers, national skydiving organisations (FYI: mine has detailed restrictions for equipment and experience going up to some sort of 'video licence') and - last but not least - our community here. Safe equipment (helmet)... Hard helmet. Camerabox moulded in the helmet shell. No snagpoints such as screws for the box or ring sights (test it!). Hard chin cup. Emergency release system with proper training. Reliable helmet closure system. No full visor system. 1-2 Audible altimeters. Edit: But remember - a knife can be a very safe tool in your hands but is very dangerous in the hands of your small children. Our community... People show pictures from their video helmet setups and write details about their camera model or their NLE solution,... and ask for comments. People write about their intention to do camera work now and their skydiving qualifications (often their jump numbers only) and ...hmm... ask for comments? Why do most people listen to "hard/technical" answers only and "soft/emotional" answers/advices are bullshit? Stefan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #35 November 10, 2004 Quote.what about WHAT equipment a new cam flyer should be allowed to use to help minimise the risk equipment related problems flying with a camera helmet... The single biggest risk I see with a lot of camera flyers, both new and old - is the ringsite. Avoid using a ringsite until your income is dependent on 'getting the shot'. Leave ringsites to the people getting paid. When you do add a ringsite, do everything possible to make it low profile. Way too many people are jumping with ringsites that look like giant hooks... Just begging for a snag. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #36 November 10, 2004 I hear using nylon fixing screws can be good for your survivability too. But good thoughts nevertheless Andy.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #37 November 10, 2004 QuoteThe single biggest risk I see with a lot of camera flyers, both new and old - is the ringsite. Avoid using a ringsite until your income is dependent on 'getting the shot'. Leave ringsites to the people getting paid. It is not a popular camera helmet but I really like mine the Sidewinder 2. The fact that it has a visor, you can use thin tape to create a ring site on the visor. This has the very positive side of having no snag points. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
