Elliptical questions

[mujie96 0]

I have read a lot about newer jumpers flying lightly loaded elliptical canopies like Stillettos and Cobalts and I brought the subject up to someone with about 11000 more jumps than me last weekend. He conceded that they can be safely landed, straight in and low performance style by someone with less experience but also pointed out that if a last minute adjustment had to be made due to a landing hazard, the canopy would dive at a much faster rate potentially resulting in a puddle of inexperienced jumper....
IF this is true, and I do see his point, how are people with 50 and 100 jumps safely flying elliptical canopies? Are they winging it? Are they just lucky? Or am I a total loser and should I know how to hook turn and swoop by this point? My canopy control is decent but I have not considered learning higher performance landings until recently, and I plan on doing it with a coach.
Am I perhaps interpreting what he said incorrectly-ie was he referring to a hard panic turn and not all low turns?

Just keep swimming...just keep swimming....

[skyboyblue 0]

One theory on that subject is if they are -probably- going to be jumping ellipticals in the future, why not train them as students(when they get the most attention) from the start. Kind of like the argument between ripcords and throw outs, or two handles vs one handle systems. Students will fly how the instructor teaches them, regardless of square or ellipticals. I'm indiffernt to the whole theory though

[Hooknswoop 19]

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One theory on that subject is if they are -probably- going to be jumping ellipticals in the future, why not train them as students(when they get the most attention) from the start. Kind of like the argument between ripcords and throw outs, or two handles vs one handle systems. Students will fly how the instructor teaches them, regardless of square or ellipticals. I'm indiffernt to the whole theory though

You can only take that so far though. You can't use VX's as student canopys, because "they will be flying one eventually". I have seen ZP squares used for student canopies up to 1.2:1 wingloading, after 3 instructional tandems and a full 20-jumps under the supervision of an instructor program.

Also, students don't fly how the Instructor teaches them. At least not a first. It takes a while.

Hook

[sunshine 2]

All i can tell you is my experience with a fully elliptical canopy. At 125ish jumps i got the bright idea to get a stiletto. I did ok under canopy cause i hardly ever turned. On one particular jump, i set up my final approach and was gonna run right into the hanger. I had to do a rather last minute toggle turn and pounded myself into the ground. I got rid of the stiletto and went to a sabre2 of the same size. I have 500+ jumps now and have no plans to go back to an elliptical anytime soon. I admit i wanted the stiletto cause it seemed everyone at my dz was jumping them right off student status. Most of those people don't hurt themselves. I think it's mostly due to luck. I personally don't think anyone should have a fully elliptical canopy until they've mastered a square and semi-elliptical.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[Samurai136 0]

My interpretation is that he is talking about a 'panic turn'. which I would define as a heading change over 90 degrees w/ toggle below the canopy's recovery arc. A pilot can hurt themself under any kind of canopy with this turn.

If you are wanting to learn swooping, do some CRW and get comfortable flying your canopy with riser inputs, above 2000'. Your swooping skill will develop from there w/ personal coaching, or make friends w/ some swoopers.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[BoobieCootie 0]

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pointed out that if a last minute adjustment had to be made due to a landing hazard, the canopy would dive at a much faster rate potentially resulting in a puddle of inexperienced jumper

My first skydive injury was exactly that. Jump #76 and it was my 6th Diablo jump - tried to avoid a landing collision. What half-brake is on a Diablo was equal to a full stroke on a rental main (Silhouette 190).

I was fortunate to have sprained my ankle really bad. And that was about 10+ feet off the ground. Had that been say 50 feet...

edit: spelling

[beemertec 0]

Don't jump a canopy you are not ready for because of peer pressure. I jump an Aeroglide 160 and I figure that canopy will be fun for at least 100 to 200 jumps. Even a larger rectangular canopy can be swooped if you know what you are doing. I accidently swooped mine about 35-40 feet one time. Of course when everyone talked about it, I acted like I did it on purpose, right up until my DZO said "Man you sure are lucky you caught that gust of wind or you would have busted your butt on that landing". I do play with my risers at altitude, just so I know what they will do, but as for hook turns and swooping, I'll leave that to the very experienced jumpers, besides who says you have to swoop to have fun skydiving.

Blue Skies
Steve
Ok, so it's pink, but I'm secure in my manhood, and I still look cool coming in under it!

[Professor 0]

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was he referring to a hard panic turn and not all low turns?

Probably. Elliptical canopies are much more responsive to toggle input, and things happen faster on heavier loaded canopies, so it's easier to get startled and overreact. 200 jumps on a moderately (1.3ish) loaded ellip is probably fine for an average jumper, but keep your head up and fly the canopy, don't let it get ahead of you.

Have fun

Ted
Like a giddy school girl.

[alan 1]

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IF this is true, and I do see his point,

I'm not convinced you see his point.

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how are people with 50 and 100 jumps safely flying elliptical canopies?

As you said he stated....." they can be safely landed, straight in and low performance style "

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Are they winging it?

To some extent, but they are also gaining experience and if they exercise caution and good judgement, they don't have to rely solely on luck.

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Are they just lucky?

Too some extent, but again,if they are getting good advice and some coaching and use good judgement they get enough experience before they encounter a situation requiring a last minute adjustment due to a landing hazard.

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Or am I a total loser and should I know how to hook turn and swoop by this point?

No, you are not a total loser, you are just not differentiating between a straight in and low performance style landing and a hook turn and swoop.

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My canopy control is decent but I have not considered learning higher performance landings until recently, and I plan on doing it with a coach.

That would be one example of what I mean by exercising good judgement and caution.

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Am I perhaps interpreting what he said incorrectly-ie was he referring to a hard panic turn and not all low turns?

Yes, although I don't think he meant to imply that an intentional low turn does not have a slower rate of decent in a turn or is not hazardous, just that a less experienced jumper may be less able to avoid the last minute adjustment or make it correctly.

As an aside, don't be confused by wing loading numbers. A 170 Sabre at 1.3 will not have the same flight characteristics as a Sabre 120 at 1.3. The 120 will have a much higher rate of turn and will therefore be less forgiving during a last minute adjustment made due to a landing hazard.

alan

[crazy 0]

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Elliptical canopies are much more responsive to toggle input

That's a bold statement. I'm wondering what makes you think so.
The responsiveness to toggle input depends a lot on other factors. The trim, the airfoil, the aspect ratio and the setting of the toggles are likely to have more effect than the planform. Some elliptical canopies are very sluggish; some square are very responsive.
Anyway, "responsiveness to toggle input" is a ragbag expression including things not necessarily bad from the safety point of view. For instance, a canopy can be responsive in terms of turning rate, while another can be responsive in terms of diving. In case of a panic turn, the first one is much better than the second.
Back to the initial question, some elliptical canopies are relatively forgiving (long command stroke, turning relatively flat). In addition, they are easy to land because they have a good bottom end flare. Finally, they also have a very short minimum recovery arc. These canopies can be a safe choice for some beginners, if their style and skills are appropriate. At the same wing loading, i don't really see why a square like a sabre would be safer than a sluggish elliptical like a cobalt.

--
Come
Skydive Asia

[AggieDave 6]

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The trim, the airfoil, the aspect ratio and the setting of the toggles are likely to have more effect than the planform. Some elliptical canopies are very sluggish; some square are very responsive.

Wingloading, you left out wingloading. What's the largest, mass produced elliptical you can buy? A stilleto 190, right? A spinetto can be an agressive platform, it can be fairly "sluggish" as well, depends a lot on wingloading. Then again, you get guys like me as students, a 190 would NOT give a safe wingloading (just over 1.5:1), no matter what the platform at those jump numbers.

The largest Colbalt made (besides the tandem) is a 170. Same story.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Joyner 0]

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Students will fly how the instructor teaches them, regardless of square or ellipticals.

In some cases I would have to disagree! I wonder were these lines came from:
"Live as you learn"
"Setting a good example"
"Do as I tell you, not as I do"

Bottom line. Instruction will only get you so far, there will always be students that try to do as you DO, and not as you tell them to do. I would much rather have that student under a big bulky square than under an eliptical when he figures out why we told him this and that.

What's the rush? I for one felt that skydiving had plenty of kicks to offer right of student status without feeling "I have to get a ZP, HP eliptical right now, or else I wont be having fun". Sure I looked at the "sky gods" of that time and went "I wish I could do that", but that was also part of the kick. Having a goal to strive for.

Time is an aspect in it self! During the time I was jumping my big bulky cannopy. I got to see some failed hp landings first hand, and had to help in taking care of the results. It is completely different watching a video of some one hooking in, and seeing it first hand. It's just to easy to see all the cool mile long turf surfs, and never see the possible consequeses. Time in this activity is an important learning tool just as getting higher jump numbers. Not only to experience the horror of accidents, but to take the opportunity to watch, ask and learn from others.

[Tonto 1]

That panic turn will break a jumper regardless of the type of canopy they are using.

Do you remember the days when you needed a few 100 dives before you could jump a square? I guess you may have been one of the people who would have said that students would never be doing 1st jumps on squares as they were too radical.

Times change. There are aspects of the VX which can improve safety.(Airlocks - Crossbracing)
ALL students are jumping canopies with FAR higher performance than the canopies I was using when I had 100's of jumps.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[freeflyeuphoria 0]

Hey Tonto good point but there is a point where you gotta say student stuff is student stuff. Have been teaching a friend of yours in the UK Wayne he is now a fully qualified sitflyer getting real trick too. Safe and steady!

blu skies

Grant a.k.a "The Wookster"
Euphoria freefly
http://www.freeflyeuphoria.com

[eames 0]

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That panic turn will break a jumper regardless of the type of canopy they are using.

Come on, are you serious? There are quite a few different degrees of being broken. While a Safire 300 (yes, we have one) may break an ankle if someone "panic" turns, a VX 120, even at the same wingloading will probably kill someone who "panic" turns.

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Do you remember the days when you needed a few 100 dives before you could jump a square? I guess you may have been one of the people who would have said that students would never be doing 1st jumps on squares as they were too radical.... Times change. There are aspects of the VX which can improve safety....

There may be some validity to this, but I think you're making a fairly far-fetched analogy. Students were allowed to jumps squares after it was determined that it could be done safely. Do you really think that it will ever be safe to hand a student a canopy that is so efficient it's capable of achieving high double digit speeds? There is a line at which initial training falls behind technology.

Jason

[Watcher 0]

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also pointed out that if a last minute adjustment had to be made due to a landing hazard, the canopy would dive at a much faster rate potentially resulting in a puddle of inexperienced jumper....
...IF this is true, and I do see his point, how are people with 50 and 100 jumps safely flying elliptical canopies? Are they winging it? Are they just lucky?

Are they winging it? I would say no.
Are they lucky? Maybe, lucks a funny thing like that, does it really even exist.

Anyways, to answer a question I have been thinking about for 2 years. About how 50-100 jumps can land the more sensitive canopy and be ok?

I'll preface this with I bet a whole lot of people might disagree but here goes.

New jumpers that are entering the sport and jumping more progressive wingloadings and canopies tend to be slightly younger than those same slightly older jumpers. Why is this trend happening? Many would say its because we are young and stupid (well they might be right but lets assume they're not). Lets put the jumpers age at around 20-30 years old. This puts them growing up the eighties and nineties. And what huge events happened in the 80s and 90s. The world of Atari, Nintendo, Sega, Sony Playstations.... Whats my point you ask? Well my point is for the last 20 years we have grown up with a instrument that honed hand eye coordination. That quick mental reflexes were developed to fast appearing visual and audio stimuli. That same mental and physical conditioning has gotten to such a point that it really seems to push the reflexes to a limit not encountered in earlier generations before us. And it keeps getting faster, I know 13 year olds that can dominate me in recognizing stimuli and executing the required action.

So we now can apply this to canopy control. The same stimuli recognition and rapid hand eye coordination is now transferred to recognizing situations, taking quick and accurate actions to handle the situation. Reactions are faster and can get you out of bad situations. Are they always fast enough? No. I would say also sometimes the wrong conclusion is made, or the right conclusion is over amped and bad things happen. But I think the increased mental training growing up is a major factor for many more people to accept more progressive canopies at higher wingloadings earlier. It seems to produce more natural canopy pilots. Currency and education and especially moderated forums like this help a lot also.

Just some thoughts, the small data set I have seen has led me to this conclusion but it could simply be coincidence and totally unrelated. And that there is some other factors that play a major role (stupidity and luck)
--

Jonathan Bartlett
D-24876
AFF-I

[Professor 0]

Sure, other stuff, especially size, is also very important. My point is that for a given amount of toggle input, a highly elliptical canopy (I mean stiletto, xfire, samuri class stuff), will respond much more to the same toggle input. If you pull a toggle down to your shoulder, a stiletto is going to turn a lot more than a sabre of the same size. This could be a problem for a low time jumper who hadn't adjusted to the subtler input of the elliptical. But, I'm not against using lightly shaped canopies for student use, and I would tend to agree w/ you, it's not canopy shape that's killing people, other stuff is more important.

Blues

Ted
Like a giddy school girl.

[mujie96 0]

SO hypothetically, would you say thats it would be bettter or at least possible to learn to swoop under a square or slightly tapered canopy?
SOme of the newer jumpers I know on those faster canopies have no interest in high performance landings but I have to say that the tingly feeling I get when I hear someone swoop is enough for me to realize I'll be learning how (slowly, as safely as possible, and with a coach).

Just keep swimming...just keep swimming....

[Professor 0]

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SO hypothetically, would you say thats it would be bettter or at least possible to learn to swoop under a square or slightly tapered canopy?

I would say so. It's a good idea to learn the basics of swooping on a canopy that isn't going to hospitalize you when you fuck up. And the really good guys can swoop the shit out of anything, you don't need a xbraced canopy to get good swoops. The only problem I have w/ learning on the big stuff is that sometimes it's harder to really manipulate your turns because of the higher riser pressure, but since you're on a 120 already anyway, this probably isn't going to be much of a problem. I'd say go for something modern, but not super high performance, like a Sabre 2, Safire 2 or even a Cobalt, if you can get one of them.

Take care

Ted
Like a giddy school girl.

[cheneyneel 0]

Man i think that you are wrong for saying that it is due to luck that other people arent hurt with elipticals..

Education and interaction with higher skilled pilots is the Key!!

Did you not prepare for the time when you would be in a compromising situation before you were in it? Learnig how traffic works to set up away from obstacles.. I have seen guys under spuares hit buildings because of so many other factors than what canopy they were flying..

I started on them about the same time you did but I spent countless times on the ground dirt diving my landings and then do hop and pops to have clear traffic to perform them.. Education works.. Please dont say it is luck because it is not...

[Professor 0]

Some people probably are getting lucky, not everyone is dedicated to becoming a better pilot, some just want to swoop the beer line and look cool.

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I spent countless times on the ground dirt diving my landings.

I thought I was the only one who did this

Ted
Like a giddy school girl.

[mujie96 0]

How does one dirt dive a landing?

Just keep swimming...just keep swimming....

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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How does one dirt dive a landing?

LOL ... I was thinking the same thing. I can visualize my landings, but dirt dive them?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[cheneyneel 0]

Visualizing and dirt diving are really the same thing..
Dirt diving is just putting a little more effort in preperation that beginners could really use ..
It is not really going to help people that already can perform high speed landings because they have learned how to visualize landings..
but for people just learning how much imput they need and to know where to start their imput to risers and using objects on the ground to find exactly what line that they need to find can really help beginners to begin to actually start to Visualize their landings...

I dont dirt dive them any more because it is so ingrained in me now but it did help to go through all actions (physically) when learning how to fly quick canopies and high speed landings.. I dont think you can be too organized with your actions..

[Professor 0]

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How does one dirt dive a landing?

Neel put it pretty well. I like to look at the wind, figure out where the spot is going to be (or watch some jump runs), and get an idea of what sort of approach I'm going to be doing, where I want to be above the ground when I start my turn, how much I'm going to slide during the turn, where and how much turbulence there is, where exactly I want to land, yada yada. I also like to think of a few different approaches, in case I end up coming from a different direction, or I don't like the situation. Generally, just think about the landing, what I'd like to do, and what I'll do if I can't do what I want to.
Oh, and run aroud the landing area w/ your arms over your head, and your eyes closed, pretending to do 180's and 270's, and flaring. That might help, too.

Ted
Like a giddy school girl.