reverse risers

[allicat 0]

I just purchased a 2000 Mirage G3 container with a Fury 220 main with reverse risers. Does anyone know why they started/stopped making these? The only thing I have heard is that they are less likely to get snagged (esp. in freeflying) but that they can cause hard cutaways. My rigger says he had reverse risers for a while and never had problems cutting away the two times he did. Do you think riser inserts would help just in case?

[skygod7777 0]

the reason for these risers was they where supposed to be "stronger" because they didn't have a gromet cut out in the riser. it was all a gimmick. the place where the risers where breaking was at the bottom, where the middle ring is. the way they fixed that was putting a piece of nylon tape in there.

are they harder to cut away?? well, my dad has had many (like 5 or 6) on his crossfire with risers like that, and had no problems. the difference is pressure is like from 5 pounds to like 7. not a big deal.


i had some, i got regular risers, i think the rings kinda look cool on a rig, maybe i'm just weird though

later

[skybytch 273]

Reversed or "integrity" risers were developed after a few incidences of "regular" mini risers breaking. The mini risers at the time generally weren't recommended to anyone over about 170 pounds; integrity mini risers could be used by heavier jumpers. Soon after this manufacturers began building "reinforced" mini risers which could be safely used by heavier jumpers. Today all US built mini risers are reinforced, and integrity risers aren't generally available.

[dragon2 2]

Quote

Today all US built mini risers are reinforced, and integrity risers aren't generally available.

Unless you live in Europe of course: Parachutes de France has them standard.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[allicat 0]

do a lot of people use them?

[Tumble 0]

Here is a discussion of reversed risers.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=18285;search_string=reversed%20risers;#18285

[dragon2 2]

Quote

do a lot of people use them?

Well since they come with Atoms, just about everybody with an Atom (popular rig, over here) has them, and for instance our national CREW rotation teams uses reversed (PdF) risers on their javelin rigs.

Seems to be a european thing...

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Quote

ur national CREW rotation teams uses reversed (PdF) risers on their javelin rigs

Even though sunpath don't reccomend it?

____________________
Say no to subliminal messages

[jdhill 0]

To the best of my recallection, Mirage has never made intergrity risers.

Josh

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Doesn't mean that these risers were the originals

____________________
Say no to subliminal messages

[jdhill 0]

I know that, but does the person asking the original question? The risers are part of the container system, not the canopy... I don't think Mirage, or any other manufacturer, recommends using other than their own risers.

Josh

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[RichM 0]

Relative Workshops (Bill Booth) have written an article describing an inherent design weakness and testing here. Note they say that since the article was written other reverse riser have been shown to be ok although I'n not sure which ones.

Rich M

[skybytch 273]

Quote

I don't think Mirage, or any other manufacturer, recommends using other than their own risers.

I know for a fact that Mirage, Sunpath and Rigging Innovations all make a point of stating that only "factory" parts are to be used on their containers.

[amy 0]

Quote

Today all US built mini risers are reinforced, and integrity risers aren't generally available.

There are at least a couple of manufacturers still making integrity risers for customers who request them.

The biggest concern I've heard about integrity risers has been over the fact that, if the riser covers on the rig are closed or the 3-ring is still lying flat against the harness webbing, the rings on the riser may have a hard time releasing because they can't "flip" through (due to being held flat by the body of the riser). As far as I know, this has never led to complete failure to release, but certainly is something to consider if you have integrity risers. Especially since the mini riser breakage problem seems to have been solved.

Amy

[allicat 0]

Quote

Quote

I don't think Mirage, or any other manufacturer, recommends using other than their own risers.

I know for a fact that Mirage, Sunpath and Rigging Innovations all make a point of stating that only "factory" parts are to be used on their containers.

I will have to find out why these risers were put on. I printed out that Relative Workshop article and will bring it to my rigger this afternoon. I am a little concerned about this... Thanks everyone for your advice.

[rigging65 0]

Quote

The biggest concern I've heard about integrity risers has been over the fact that, if the riser covers on the rig are closed or the 3-ring is still lying flat against the harness webbing, the rings on the riser may have a hard time releasing because they can't "flip" through (due to being held flat by the body of the riser).

Not to mention line twists pinning the rings to your head!

As for hard cutaways, it's not so much an issue when you're flying flat and level, it's when you've got the added G's of a spin to deal with when reverse risers really fall down.

The 3-Ring System is designed to work as a series of levers and a pulley. Since mechanical advantage is multiplicative, removing one of the parts from the series can dramatically reduce the overall function of the system.

Since reverse risers don't have the "pulley" section they give you less advantage (the loop doesn't go through a grommet, which would usually results in the additional mech. advantage)...by some reports you lose about 1/2 of the mech. advantage (which means you double your pull force).

Again, this isn't an issue when there is only 200lbs. hanging evenly off the risers. Where it is a problem is when you're spinning like crazy, with one riser loaded up more than another. Taking your pull force from 4lbs per side to 8 lbs per side isn't much, but add the G's and you go from having say 12lbs. of pull per side to having 24lbs. per side...now we're getting scary.

Add to that a point loaded riser and your numbers can get even worse.

With this in mind (as well as the section I quoted above about the rings locking in place...usually in line twists, pinning them against your head/helmet), and given that mini-risers very rarely break anymore, it doesn't seem like reverse risers are all that attractive any more.

Which may be why you see fewer of them every year!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[BBKid 0]

Does anyone know if PdF still make their risers like this? And is there an option to have standard ones with the rings on the outside? I don't like the thought of 3-rings in the face, and 3 more caught up in hair as I try to cutaway.

I really hope you can go for the standard ones - I want to buy an Atom eventually...

Nick
---------------------------
"I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!"

[ZigZag 0]

[sdctlc 0]

As much discussion that the "Integrity" or "reverse" risers seems to create the one key thing to remember is that if you use them you will not notice a difference in their use during normal jumping BUT there are some situations that need thought regarding your emergency procedures. One example of a difference you need to think about is created by a reduced angle between the rings on the "reversed" main risers and the reserve riser. This can restrict the "open" space needed to allow the "reversed" 3-ring system to unfold releasing the main canopy. There are a number of ways to have this happen but from my own personal experience you can run into a problem if the reserve is deploying while under an open main canopy. The opening sequence of the reserve lifts its risers off the shoulder and in turn the reserve riser becomes progressively closer to the "reversed" main risers rings, that is of course if the deployed main is not cut away.

I was under my open main then realized my reserve was going out. I looked over my shoulder to see the freebag going to line stretch and my first thought was "shit" so I cut the main away before the reserve was open, thinking canopy transfer. All good right!!! Wrong, a second later found myself looking up at a "Cut Away Main Main/Reserve Bi-Plane" with the cut away handle in my hand and cables dangling. Second thought: "WTF, this is not what I was expecting!" All ended good and that is a different story but I bring it up as something to think about…

The reverse risers are out there, not so popular now but they are around. I have a pair in my gear bag as a back up if I need risers for something. You need to think about the differences brought about with this type of riser and have in your emergence procedure thoughts the different situations that may be generated by the reversed risers. It is not as simple as cut away - deploy reserve every time. If you use decide to get reversed risers great, if you don’t great, but be aware how these risers might fit into your emergency procedures.

Blue Skies,
Scott C.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[billbooth 10]

Guys;

I don't know about you, but I want my 3-rings to work EVERY time, in ANY malfunction situation. "Most of the time" just doesn't cut it. Reversed risers, soft housings, and all other "improvements" to the 3-ring lower reliability. Emergency systems are simply no place to cut corners. I cry every time I see a poorly made 3-ring, but there is nothing I can do about it, but tell you again, "There is one best way to make a 3-ring release system, and it doesn't cost a dime more to do it right. The plans are available from the Relative Workshop." How much is your life worth?

[rigging65 0]

Yeah, what he said...

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[allicat 0]

Guys,

I appreciate all your inputs. Alot of the people I have spoken with about this have told me not to worry about it, but considering the concerns you have all raised (which I think are legitimate), I think I will order some new risers. I'd much rather err on the side of safety.

Also, the ends of my cutaway cables in the bottoms of my risers are not housed which concerns me as well. After a near cutaway yesterday which scared the piss out of me, I have decided to make sure my new risers have housings in them.

[rigging65 0]

Quote

I have decided to make sure my new risers have housings in them.

That's a great idea. They're cheap insurance. Be sure that whatever kind you get they are capped at the top end!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[jdhill 0]

Since you have a Mirage, you should get them from Mirage... they will come with the housings...

Josh

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[allicat 0]

Yes, I will be sure to. Capped and from Mirage.