masher 1 #1 May 5, 2003 I'm in the market for my first rig, and we were discussing different containers after we finished jumping on Sunday. One of my instructors jumps a Jav, and he said that he wouldn't mind a look at the new Jav (Odessey), and I remarked that the cut-in backpad should make it quite comfortable. Another instructor hadn't heard of the cut-in backpad, and when I explained it to him, his first reaction was that it was a snag hazard. How realistic is his reaction? What is the likelyhood of getting anything snagged there?-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #2 May 5, 2003 The guy I ordered my odyssey with (when I had 30 or so jumps) Is big into crew and told me it might be a snag point in crew. I dont think anymore than an alti or any other part of the rig but then again Ive never done any real crew. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #3 May 5, 2003 I think that if your lines pass through that part of your rig for a chance of snagging, you'll probably have more important things to worry about along the way...From the couple rigs I've seen with them, what I noticed is yes, it *could* be a snag point, but that it would be unlikely to actually happen. Note: That is only my opinion, I am NOT a rigger. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olstad 0 #4 May 5, 2003 Another instructor hadn't heard of the cut-in backpad, and when I explained it to him, his first reaction was that it was a snag hazard. An instructor that don`t know of, or havent seen the javelin Odyssey. You should probably ask another instructor..... Thats only my opinion..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 5 #5 May 5, 2003 I am not willing to trade the potential comfort of a cut-in for the extra hazard I believe it provides. When I first heard of this design "feature" I pretty much decided that it wasn't worth it. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aufreefly 0 #6 May 5, 2003 The two people that I know who have cut-in backpads for freeflying (one Mirage and one Javelin) are not happy with them. With the Mirage at least, there is a pivot point at the chest rings and because of that when you sitfly the rig comes off of your back by about 6-10 inches. If you don't mind this happening go for the cut-ins. I know what you are thinking, what if you tighten the rig? That would create another problem. When you tighten a rig with chest rings IMHO the cutaway and reserve handles are in a bad place. They kind of get pulled under your arms. A guy at SDA is trying to send his brand new $2000 Mirage back to get the cut-ins taken off. They bother him that much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #7 May 6, 2003 Quotewhen you sitfly the rig comes off of your back by about 6-10 inches. Wow. Is that the right sized rig for that person. I sitfly in my odyssey and tighten my cheststrap a lot and it doesnt move 1 inch. QuoteWhen you tighten a rig with chest rings IMHO the cutaway and reserve handles are in a bad place. They kind of get pulled under your arms. Again is this the right sized rig? My handles are always right were I left them, below my pecs on my ribcage. If you leave the chest strap open they would go more under your arms, right? The cut in backpad offers no more of a snag hazard than my open main canopy tray imho. It is extremely comfortable and poses no danger that I can see because as dave said if thats what your worried about, you passed the sign for shit's creek a long time ago. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #8 May 6, 2003 Quoteposes no danger that I can see because as dave said if thats what your worried about, you passed the sign for shit's creek a long time ago. i don't see any snag point anyway. i mean, even if you are very unstable when pulling, if you bag come out of the container, it is lose now, and won't be a problem if a lin gets under it, because it isn't hard anymore. but hey, that's just my opinion though. until i see someone that can prove it to me, to my face, i won't belive it later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #9 May 6, 2003 Quotei don't see any snag point anyway. i mean, even if you are very unstable when pulling, if you bag come out of the container, it is lose now, and won't be a problem if a lin gets under it, because it isn't hard anymore. That makes sense to me. That and the fact that once the container is open, you have the closing flaps to snag on (as has been mentioned)-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #10 May 6, 2003 Quote when you sitfly the rig comes off of your back by about 6-10 inches. Did your friend forget to put his legs through his leg straps. I'd believe if you'd say 1 or 2 inches, but 6-10 is just too much. Post some pictures how this is possible if you can. or explain how a rig can move 6 - 10 inches in any way And yes is the rig properly sized for your friend, or is it second hand. About tightening the rig. If you tighten your leg straps enough, i can't imagine how cutaway and reserve handles can get in bad place. unless of course the rig is second hand."George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #11 May 6, 2003 QuoteThe two people that I know who have cut-in backpads for freeflying (one Mirage and one Javelin) are not happy with them. With the Mirage at least, there is a pivot point at the chest rings and because of that when you sitfly the rig comes off of your back by about 6-10 inches. If you don't mind this happening go for the cut-ins. The Javelin is designed completely differently from the mirage. The Mirage G4 does it with inner elastic straps. With Javelin it is actually part of the rig and this will not happen. The Mirage isn't actually cut-in at all. As to the risk of snags, it is pure hypothesis. To act like it's a real danger is quite silly at this point. Cut-in Laterals have been available on the Javelins for 3 or 4 years. Thousands of test jumps and tens of thousands of sport jumps have been made with them, and there has never been a single snag. Naturally, I can't say it's impossible, but it's not a realistic risk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Watcher 0 #12 May 6, 2003 Mirage upon request has made a few with cutin, I looked at it last week and instead of going into the container as part of the MLW that is internal of the rig, Mirage's solution was to sew on the later going around the back to the backpad and put another piece of backpad over it. Does not look as sturdy or strong as a Javelin. --Jonathan Bartlett D-24876 AFF-I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #13 May 6, 2003 I love my oddessey it fits great and I dont really think its much of a hazard.. I dont do crew though... -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #14 May 6, 2003 i think, why mirage did it this way is that you can have both. with cutin or without some people don't like cutin backpad. so at mirage g4 you can easily take it off. or have it on if you like. No it sure isn't very strong because "cutin" is made of elastic, and it only snugs you gently around the waist, and gives you the feeling that container is part of you. it's not part of the harness. harness around the waist is made just like G3. I just got mine G4 and so far i like the mirages so called "cut in" better than odisseys. why? try putting mirage g4 on naked skin and odissey. Mirages cutin is made of soft elastic, while odyssey cutin is made of "harness material" (i don't know english word for this material) without ant foam underneath or anything that would soften the feeling. btw i had javelin odyssey on my back on naked skin too. but then again odyssey wasn't custom made for my body, but mirage g4 is."George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aufreefly 0 #15 May 6, 2003 QuotePost some pictures how this is possible if you can. or explain how a rig can move 6 - 10 inches in any way Here is a shot that I captured from a jump this saturday. On another jump that I was not wearing video I have seen it even more off of the body. http://www.auburn.edu/~huntmic/freeflyvids/DSC00032.JPG As far as the handles being out of place...I have only seen it with the mirage with chest rings but when you tighten the chest strap the top of the shoulders are close together and everything above the chest ring stays in place but the handles are rotated under your arms...does this make sense? It is kind of hard to explain. Edited to say:maybe it was like 4 to 6 inches...but he said that it bothers him and wants the cut-outs taken out[shrug] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #16 May 6, 2003 the picture you posted shows a very ill fitting rig. If I had gotten that new from any manufacturer I would have sent it back.If if was bought second hand it should have been more closely inspected for fit and jumped more than once if possible. that's what I think anyway... hey I could be wrong!Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #17 May 7, 2003 That is no where close to how a rig is supposed to fit. I would consult a rigger or the manufacturer about the size of your friends rig. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #18 May 7, 2003 would they even make a rig with laterals that long without double checking the measurements? ____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aufreefly 0 #19 May 7, 2003 Quote unless of course the rig is second hand No the rig is brand new...custom ordered with tyedye, stainless, packpad, and chest rings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #20 May 7, 2003 do i see correctly? has this rig anything else from hip bone to bottom of container but elastic strap. i can't see from the picture. but it seems like there is no harness between the hip ring and the bottom of container. or is the harness there 10 inches long. On my container harness that binds bottom of container and hip ring is 3 inches long at most. on the picture it looks like that part is 10 inches long, if there is any harness there (ass i said, i can't see) And i tried puttin my G4 on and a friend pushed on the bottom of container, as the wind would do in a sit. it doesn't move a bit. i'd get that rig inspected. it's just to weird... "George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #21 May 7, 2003 While sit flying, A premature deployment with the laterals as long as they are, could very conceivably strip the rig from your back. here's an experiment. You can actually do this on MANY rigs. While the rig is tightened how you normally have it, sit down on the floor in a crouch, reach back and grab the yoke and take your rig off like a t-shirt. You'll get the point.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #22 May 7, 2003 Judging from the photograph, that harness was built for someone 50 pounds fatter around the waist. Clearly someone in the harness department made a mistake. I would mail the rig back to the factory - with photographs - and demand that they shorten the lateral straps. The good news is that most factories will do that sort of re-size for free on new harnesses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Watcher 0 #23 May 7, 2003 No, (as stated in an above post) mirage made his with the laterals cut in, not the normal G4 with the laterals in the corners and elastic, but with true cut ins, Obviously Mirage has not perfected the system very well yet. --Jonathan Bartlett D-24876 AFF-I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #24 May 7, 2003 QuoteWhile sit flying, A premature deployment with the laterals as long as they are, could very conceivably strip the rig from your back. here's an experiment. You can actually do this on MANY rigs. While the rig is tightened how you normally have it, sit down on the floor in a crouch, reach back and grab the yoke and take your rig off like a t-shirt. You'll get the point. We had a long thread about this awhile back, and it comes down to the length of the MLW. Mine is really short and the whole pull it over your head like a t-shirt left me stuck with Derek laughing his ass off. Luckly he didn't take a picture before he helped me back into the rig.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #25 May 7, 2003 >the whole pull it over your head like a t-shirt >left me stuck with Derek laughing his ass off HEHEHE... Ok well it is funny. Several of us one day did that same experiment. We were very surpized how many of us could take our rigs off. I'll try it tonight. Nonetheless.... That rig does not fit correctly. My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
