How do i get above/away from my 4 way team on exit?

[Peej 0]

Hi there,

If you have a chance, i desperately need some advice from you guys with loads of experience filming 4 way teams.

Here's my situation:

I'm a very new camera man, basically i started doing tandem camera this year and when the DZ was short staffed one Saturday i did some 4 way video for a girl's team and it turned out i was actually ok at it.

Since then in between my tandems i've been doing some filming for teams that are minus a camera person. A few weeks ago a very experienced 4 way, our current national champs actually, asked me to fill in for them.

After a weekend of training they mentioned that they don't actually have a full time camera dude and offered me a position on the team. They also want me to compete with them at Nationals next month. I've read the advice here that to be a good 4 way camera person you should have spent some time on a 4 way team. I haven't. What I'm doing though is trying my best to learn the formations and learn their dive flows so i know when to expect a block and when to expect the formation to rocket away from me.

What i am battling with though is the exit.

What i've been doing is going off the plane with them, like a half a second after they leave, a kind of "ready, set, they go, i go thing". I'm on top of them but i'm too close. For example if they launch a longer piece or are doing a dive with a mono-pod move on the hill my third team member is out of the frame.

I'm shooting with a kenko .45 at the moment. They say they don't know much about camera work and reckon they don't know how to get "away/ above them" more on exit. We do agree however that a wider lense might not be the answer.

Is there a flying technique you can recommend? I hope i've described the situation accurately. I really will try and get hold of a firewire cable tonight and try to upload some of my footage to skydiving movies.

Thanks ahead of time for any advice you can impart. I'll seek the advice of experienced flyers this weekend, i just wanted your opinions as well.

Edited to add:

We fly a Pilatus Porter, i exit off the rear of the plane, with one hand on the vertical bar, one on the handle on top of the plane and my right foot in the corner of the door. We don't have a traditional peg step at the back of the plane like on an Otter. I use a Sony PC 109, sidemounted on an Optik Illusion. I also fly a set of camera wings with long baggy "freefly" type pants to match, no booties.

Thanks again
PJ

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[Zoter 0]

What aircraft are you using ...?
Flying camera wings or no..?
Top mount or side mount helmet...?

This might be useful info to help others with their advice to you.

[Peej 0]

Thanks bro, i edited to add a few things.

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[PhreeZone 20]

Are you turning your body with the formation as you peel or are you just stepping off?

In some formations its sometimes better to lead the group then to chase them. You just have to track really hard on exit to go up the hill as they come down it. You also can pop the wings a tad to get the vertical seperation.

Want to post some of the videos so we can get a better idea of what you are doing?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[piisfish 140]

the 1st problem is it's a girl team, and they are hotties, so whatever you try, your human reflex will be to be as close as possible

what you can try is leading exits (ready set you go they go). Open your wings, give legs and you're above.

on your trailing exit maybe try and leave slightly later, but as the girls are on the hill, you might only be able to film them from the side (45 degrees rule again )

also ask Vana to buy a videostep for the Porter

P.S. I lead the exit on 4 ways and usually trail for bigger formations.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[davelepka 4]

It's just a judgement call on exits. Sometimes you want to lead the team, sometimes you want to trail them. How much you lead or trail them will depend on the size of the piece. For a bigger or longer peice, you'll need to leave more gap between the teams exit and yours.

On of the dangers with leading, especially if you're new to a team, is if you get behind the curve, you'll exit right on top of them. There's a point in time where your 'window' to lead the team will close, and then you have to shift to plan B, which is to stay put, let them go by you then trail them.

As such, it's hard to go wrong trailing a team. Learn to delay an extra beat if their pulling out a bigger or longer peice. Also, in freefall, I know it's cool to be tight to the team, but the difference between tight, and cutting grips out of the frame, or worse, taking the team out is only inches. On the flip side, you have to really really far away be too far away, so play it safe, give your self an extra foot or two in freefall. Your job isn't to shoot shit hot video. Your job is to produce a consistant and judgeable product.

[Peej 0]

Quote

Are you turning your body with the formation as you peel or are you just stepping off?

I'm stepping off more than turning with them. I am trying to launch hard though and pop the wings. Thanks for the advice Phree, i'll try to get some footage up asap.

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[Peej 0]

Thanks dude, i'll try some of the leading stuff this weekend.

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[Peej 0]

Quote

As such, it's hard to go wrong trailing a team. Learn to delay an extra beat if their pulling out a bigger or longer peice. Also, in freefall, I know it's cool to be tight to the team, but the difference between tight, and cutting grips out of the frame, or worse, taking the team out is only inches. On the flip side, you have to really really far away be too far away, so play it safe, give your self an extra foot or two in freefall. Your job isn't to shoot shit hot video. Your job is to produce a consistant and judgeable product.

That's excellent advice, thanks Dave. I'm going to be trying a few new things this weekend and will try some trailing stuff for sure.

And you're right about the difference between being tight and taking them out being only inches. I learned that lesson this past weekend as well when i bombed the formation for the first time But that's another story altogether. I have decided to err on the side of caution for now.

After chatting to the team they've told me that they look not to win but to consistently have clean meets with no busts from their side or the camera person's, i'm trying my best to live up to my side of the deal.

Thanks again for the tips and advice!

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[lewmonst 0]

If you don't hit them at least once, you're not flying close enough.


That being said. I lead everything, every block and random. Helps to think about slot-flying between the tail and inside center. The timing, if I had to guess, is probably a tenth of a second. Don't go early, don't go late. And don't just let go, fly. Teams like leading exits for debrief. It looks nicer when done right. When wrong, it's a disaster.

Peeling is playing it safe for judging, but teams don't like to debrief from it as well.

Best thing you can do is 1000 jumps with your team . In the meantime, you can get a few of the better teams' "Best-Of" dvd's and watch all the exits. Keep in mind, your team won't launch the same way, but you'll learn from it anyway.

peace
Karen Lewis

http://www.exitshot.com

[freefallcrab 0]

Peej - good luck with the camera work, lots of helpful advise and here is my 0.02p if it worth even that. I fly a top mounted camera and wear a suit with big wings. I started out peeling and was missing stuff.

I am a simple soul and was given a great tip by Fordy, one of our top camera dudes, when I was starting out and it works just fine. For the Dornier G92 and Islander which we jump (both fixed undercarriage) I stand on the step as far back as I can and drop off the step by sliding down the fuselage as the centrepoint of the formation covers the wheel. This is 'one size fits all' and pretty much works for every formation. Obviously you need awareness of the exit formation and be prepared to bang out more or less wing as required especially if the team comes out 'long and stringy' but this gives me a full presentation launch picture which remains in-shot as the teams swings below me (relatively speaking). There are lots of way more experienced camera guys and girls out there who can give you the detail but as a relatively newcomer myself (still learning) I thought I would share my experience with ya.

Use your wings Johnny....

[Peej 0]

Thanks Lew, after re-reading all the other advice as well as yours, a lot of stuff suddenly made sense in my head!

I've been letting them go, then going myself. I'm not really peeling though, just hopping off and punching. I've never tried to peel becasue after reading some other camera flyer's posts about RW camera most said they wouldn't recommend peeling. The leading exit sounds like a winner though. I'm all excited to get out there and try it this weekend!

As for the thousand jumps thing, i'm sure that would solve a lot of problems! Unfortunately i have maybe 50 team jumps to try and get this right before competition week 10 - 18 April. No pressure!

Thanks again!
PJ

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[Peej 0]

Thanks Mr Crab!

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[piisfish 140]

Quote

The leading exit sounds like a winner though. I'm all excited to get out there and try it this weekend!

sometimes you'll lead too early and will be hard to get above, that's your job to correct it and keep good footage.
Sometimes you'll leave slightly too late, be in their burble and get in the formation. You'll be rewarded by some ass grabbing

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[ltdiver 3]

Look, quade! Our baby's all grown up!
Nice, lew! I love looking at your team's video....wish we still had the 'cameraflyer of the meet' award to give out at SSL competitions. You've earned it!

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[champu 1]

Quote

That being said. I lead everything, every block and random. Helps to think about slot-flying between the tail and inside center. The timing, if I had to guess, is probably a tenth of a second. Don't go early, don't go late. And don't just let go, fly. Teams like leading exits for debrief. It looks nicer when done right. When wrong, it's a disaster.

"So when are you supposed to leave when doing a leading exit?"

"At the exact correct instant."

[lewmonst 0]

Quote

Look, quade! Our baby's all grown up!
Nice, lew! I love looking at your team's video....wish we still had the 'cameraflyer of the meet' award to give out at SSL competitions. You've earned it!

Aw, thanks Lori! I didn't even know such an award existed... Who was behind that? It's a good idea.

But who you callin a baby? Remember, I'm bigger than you.

peace
Karen Lewis

http://www.exitshot.com

[ltdiver 3]

Former SSL Director, Graham Harding, was behind that award during the inception of the league. I wish that Eric Assendorf would have kept it, but for some reason the award fell by the wayside.

It was cool seeing cameraflyers get their recognition each meet. We may be behind the scenes, but that part is just as important as what the team is cranking out down below.
And no, lew, you're certainly not a baby anymore. Fury is very lucky to have you!

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[piisfish 140]

so how did the jumps go ?? Tried different stuff ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Peej 0]

As of this past weekend, they've been going great, thanks!
I had one of the more experienced flyers look at some of my footage and he reckoned i wasn't standing tall enough on the back of the porter. So we started there and it helped a lot. I now stand much higher, so i look over the top of the wing with my head down a little bit so the count is in frame. (we've heard that judges might want to see the count on video this year at nationals, but we'll check it at the briefing next Monday.)

He, and the team, were a little nervous of me starting to mess too wildly with my exit strategy, ie, leading. So all i've done is started to wait a second or so longer than i have been and it seems to be working really well.

And the resuls show it. Of 10 rounds this weekend (we had a practice mimi meet), 9 of them were clean rounds for me
However, I managed to completely psyche myself out before exit in the last round when at 8000 ft a voice in my head said: "hey, if you do don't screw up this round, we'll have had 10 clean rounds today!" Naturally i screwed it up.

I'll have to watch out for radio head during competition next week.

On the whole though, i'm feeling good going into it. Our last training day is Friday and then we start competing on Tuesday.

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