sinker 0 #1 May 12, 2003 I recently lost a old friend, one of our local Tennessee jumpers. Talking with some of those present, a few people mentioned that his canopy "collapsed"... There were reported winds and turbulence. Then I see that another jumper was killed in Z'hills this weekend under the same type canopy, a Sabre2. I've been told that the Sabre2 has a similar trim to the original Crossfire which also had stability issues. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to draw causal relationships between these two fatalities and the Sabre2. Rather, I'd like to ask if anyone else has noticed stability problems with the new Sabre2? -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #2 May 12, 2003 >I've been told that the Sabre2 has a similar trim to the original Crossfire which also had stability issues. Who told you this?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #3 May 12, 2003 I've made about 90 jumps on a Sabre2 190 (loaded @1.2:1) and another 50+ jumps on a Sabre2 170 (loaded @1.4:1). I have experienced some turbulance (usually fairly high up) but am not too worried about a low altitude canopy collapse (possibly because of my wing loading and also because my dropzone tends to ground the entire load once the winds get squirrelly). Of course, if I bounce due to some turbulance low to the ground, then I guess I'll become yet another statistic. Is there truly a safe canopy out there? I'm not experienced enough to say so, but my guess would be no. My home DZ has it's share of air locked canopies and I'm looking forward to demoing one later this year. But even those aren't fool proof, are they? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #4 May 12, 2003 some dude at the dz this weekend. Is it true? I'm no rigger and I've no experience w/ these two canopies, so I can't speak to the issue... it's just what I heard. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #5 May 12, 2003 Quote the original Crossfire which also had stability issues SOME crossfires .____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #6 May 12, 2003 QuoteIs there truly a safe canopy out there? I'm not experienced enough to say so, but my guess would be no. My home DZ has it's share of air locked canopies and I'm looking forward to demoing one later this year. But even those aren't fool proof, are they? I'm not asking for a truly full-proof, safe canopy. But some canopies ARE safer than others. All I'm asking for is if there is any other experience out there with the Sabre2 being unstable. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #7 May 12, 2003 I haven't jumped one, but lemme put it this way... The Sabre2 has been out for over two years and to date PD has put out over 2600 of them. If there were "stability problems" with this canopy I'd think they would have come to light before now. I fly a Spectre - arguably one of the more "stable" canopy designs out there. I've come close to being slammed into the ground after my canopy partially collapsed due to turbulence (the infamous "summer winds" at Perris...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #8 May 12, 2003 Bytch, a VERY good point. I had no idea they had sold so many. But then again, there may be "something" to the two recent fatalities. Probably not, but it is a question worth asking in the interest of safety. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #9 May 12, 2003 QuoteI haven't jumped one, but lemme put it this way... The Sabre2 has been out for over two years and to date PD has put out over 2600 of them. If there were "stability problems" with this canopy I'd think they would have come to light before now. I fly a Spectre - arguably one of the more "stable" canopy designs out there. I've come close to being slammed into the ground after my canopy partially collapsed due to turbulence (the infamous "summer winds" at Perris...) Do you know how many spectre's PD has put out to date? :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #10 May 13, 2003 QuoteI've been told that the Sabre2 has a similar trim to the original Crossfire which also had stability issues. The xfire's that were affected were not built purposely with trim that affected stability. It was a production mistake. Properly built xfire1's are quite stable as are most canopies on the market today. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kolla 0 #11 May 13, 2003 LOL NICE try Kevin!! For such a sneaky little way of asking I'm almost inclined to tell you... - but nope, my lips are sealed until June 30th! Bloooos! Kolla Blue Skies Magazine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #12 May 13, 2003 Actually, its getting mailed tomorrow (i put a few jumps on it, put it back in the box, and its been sitting here for an extra week because i totally forgot about it...sorry).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #13 May 13, 2003 Well, seeing how I can't win (damned fine print)... gosh, I just don't have any idea how many Spectre's PD has built so far... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kolla 0 #14 May 13, 2003 Hey no worries - I know where to find you. And you gotta find something more exciting to hold ransom.... that 176 isn't going to buy you the magic number! But then there is always bribery... ooohh... maybe put some chocolate in the box with that 176 and then we can talk Blue Skies Magazine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #15 May 13, 2003 QuoteBut then again, there may be "something" to the two recent fatalities. Probably not, but it is a question worth asking in the interest of safety. Absolutely. And looking at every possible cause is a good thing. I think the real common denominator here is turbulence, not canopy type. Any canopy can collapse in turbulence. When it happens close to the ground you're probably going to be really messed up or dead. Which can make both staying on the ground when the air gets funky and knowing the places around the dz where the air is more likely to be funky survival skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #16 May 13, 2003 I currently jump a Sabre 2 150 and have not noticed any problems with stability and I have about 150 jumps on it. The winds can get pretty squirrely here in Texas. Flew it threw a dust devil and had half my canopy collapse and the reinflate quickly. It made it threw that with out any problem, scared the shit out of me though. Landed with out an problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #17 May 13, 2003 Quote but am not too worried about a low altitude canopy collapse (possibly because of my wing loading Bad thinking here....Wingload will not make a canopy more safe in turbulance....747's are affected by turbulance. The only way to avoid turbulance is to not jump on days that it can happen....The better option is to learn what creates turbulance and avoid those areas. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #18 May 13, 2003 Quote747's are affected by turbulance. Yes, but they're effected less, and its not really due to wingloading alone, its a ratio of wingloading and overall mass... Same reason why tandems fair better in adverse winds then sport canopies (with in reason). I'm sure someone who knows more about that stuff then me can explain it much better.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #19 May 13, 2003 Wingload will not make you "safe" in turbulance. If you think it will, you are wrong."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #20 May 13, 2003 I didn't say that, reread what I said. Where did I say it would make you safe? I said that more mass in ratio with your wingloading makes people less effected by certain conditions, NOT safer. My example was tandems. Ok, example, a 152 takes off and get bumped all over the place. A 777 takes off in the same conditions and only experiences a very little bump. See what I'm saying?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #21 May 13, 2003 You are preaching to the wrong guy here..... I already know that, and my post was not aimed at you.... But since you are so quick to jump my shit... If a 747 that weighs 400,000 pounds can get hit by turbulance....A guy under a flexable wing glider...will get hit...No matter what your wingload is. Wingload will not make you safe...Now thats all I said. You took it as an attack, which it was not."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #22 May 13, 2003 "Yes, but they're effected less, and its not really due to wingloading alone, its a ratio of wingloading and overall mass... " Wow this had me puzzled, Dave, till I thought of the words Momentum and Inertia. Now it seems a little more sensible. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #23 May 13, 2003 Makes perfect sense to me Dave. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fudd 0 #24 May 13, 2003 Got hit by turbulence this weekend. Crossed the runway a bit low to land on the other side due to a bit of traffic. Didn't want to S turn with people comming up behind me. I knew there would be some turbulence there, because I've landed there before. But I had not landed there in strong winds. Strong winds and hot air from the runway created way more turbulence than I expected. Canopy collapse at 30-40 feet. Dropped pretty fast, got air and flared. Happend very fast, but I were lucky and managed a stand up landing. One more lesson learned cheap. . There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #25 May 13, 2003 You're obviously pretty selective with your quotes here. Why didn't you quote the part where I said my home DZ tends to ground ALL jumpers when the winds get squirrelly? Instead you choose to pick on my wing loading. Dude don't judge a book which you've never seen. I do quite well with my current canopy (which I don't plan on replacing anytime soon) and I do it here in CO where the density altitude is high. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
