Trouble with Stows

[fundgh 0]

When I bought my rig used, it had a combination of tube stows, short rubber band stows and long rubber band stows. As I have broken the rubber bands, I have replaced them with tube (I liked stowing with the tube stows). I have been applying the bag lift test and the stows will release before the bag comes off the ground. So I tried the tightening method that tube stow recommends, but it didn't work. So I swapped out for some small rubber bands, and the stows are still releasing too easy. So tried the larger bands with a double wrap, and this made it really tight and I could get the bag off of the ground. But I had to shake it hard to get it off. I seem to have trouble finding the happy medium. Any recommendations?

...FUN FOR ALL!

[rigging65 0]

Rubber bands are just there to keep the lines in order. I freestow my lines and have no problems with openings due to it. They should just be there to hold things in place so they don't knot up, and that's about all they're good for.

Have you tried double stowing the tube stows? If you like them, this might work for you.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[fundgh 0]

I was under the impression that it wasn't recommended.

...FUN FOR ALL!

[fundgh 0]

Actually, I never really had any opening problems, I was just trying to be meticulous about packing. I have always had somewhat loose stows.

...FUN FOR ALL!

[Joyner 0]

You know there are different sizes of tube stows right?

I use tubes, and they hold the lines snugg, but not hard!

[rigging65 0]

Quote

I was under the impression that it wasn't recommended.

I did it for years and never had a problem...then I switched to the black SkyBandz (which work very well also), then I designed a stowless D-bag and have never looked back!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[fundgh 0]

I didn't know that there were different size tube stows (other than the locking stows), however the new ones I bought are a different thickness than the ones I have replaced.
There is a BASEr at my dropzone that uses a stowless d-bag. Any downfalls?

...FUN FOR ALL!

[mikeat10500 12]

Quote

Quote

I was under the impression that it wasn't recommended.

I did it for years and never had a problem...then I switched to the black SkyBandz (which work very well also), then I designed a stowless D-bag and have never looked back!

I toss my lines in there pretty loose too but I think it is important that the looking stows be snug enough to be last out!( I keep tension on the locking stows by packing real messy like...and forcing it in the bag)
Although I have never had a problem, I don't believe most people would recommend it( loose stows).
I have seen 2 sizes of tube stows large/small and
the large are way to big for micro lines( that's what I use).
...mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[rigging65 0]

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I think it is important that the looking stows be snug enough to be last out!(

You're absolutely right...except about how to spell "locking."

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[BMFin 0]

Quote

I freestow my lines and have no problems with openings due to it.
.

What is freestowing ?

[mikeat10500 12]

Free stow= no elastics or tube stows(looking(sp) or otherwise)...lines Are just
placed in container neatly.
Sometimes lines will be stowed in a pouch that's Velcro closed...but I don't call that a free stow.
...mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[Dougjumper 0]

Aerodyne makes some stow bands that I like called superbands U might check them out. Aerodyneusa.com They have changed hands since but give them a try.

[rigging65 0]

Quote

but I don't call that a free stow

....so what would you call it? It's not a tail pocket, it's not stowed...

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[BadDog 0]

Quote

Rubber bands are just there to keep the lines in order. I freestow my lines and have no problems with openings due to it. They should just be there to hold things in place so they don't knot up, and that's about all they're good for.

Whenever I hear the other side of the argument, it has to do with making stows tight enough to avoid line dump. Would you mind addressing that argument? BTW, I, for one, really appreciate the fact that people with your level of experience and knowledge are willing to share their knowledge with the rest of us. It certainly helps to dispell some of the urban legends that have evolved in this sport over the years.

[deadwood 0]

I made a bag with a free stow pouch. Closes just like a reserve free bag except I use rubberbands for the locking stows.

I have about 300 jumps on it with no problems.

At PIA this year Sunpath showed a main bag they were working on with absolutely no stows. All done with tuck flaps.

That may be my next project.

He who hesitates shall inherit the earth.

Deadwood
Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division

[masher 1]

Quote

Sometimes lines will be stowed in a pouch that's Velcro closed...but I don't call that a free stow

There's a puch like that on the Racer I'm trying out. I wondered what that was for.

Not that I'm going to try it...

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[jerm 0]

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it has to do with making stows tight enough to avoid line dump. Would you mind addressing that argument?

Line dump really is a rarity these days.. people get a slammer and say "dude i had total line dump" when really they just had a slammer for one reason or another.

Line dump is NOT your stows comming out too quickly and getting a hard opening from it. Line dump is the phenomenon of your canopy coming out of the bag, catching air and inflating (to some degree) before you've reached line stretch -- effectively stopping the canopy in its tracks (as it's totally unloaded) with you still falling away at 120mph and then BLAM... you hit line stretch with you and the canopy moving at very different speeds.
Imagine bungee jumping with a bungee that doesn't stretch, or a steel cable.

True line dump has a tendency to damage equipment and the person wearing it.

So really all the stows need to do is need the canopy in the bag until you reach linestretch... the rest is, as said before, for neatness.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[riggerrob 643]

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I freestow my lines and have no problems with openings due to it.
.

What is freestowing ?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Free-stowing involves figure-8 ing your lines in your pack tray, with no Velcro, pockets or rubber bands of any sort. Free-stowing was fashionable circa 1980, but fell out of fashion after a coupleof guys died from line/side flap entanglements.
A major function of line stows is lifting lines clear of containers before they can half-hitch around side flaps.

[bigtim 0]

I see your main is a Sabre, do yourself a big favor and go directly to the source and read the pd web site article about hard openings and line stows on sabre's. You'll see that line stows and the size of your pilot chute have a lot to do with sabre openings. If you are jumping a sabre, as I am, don't listen to people tell you that loose line stows are ok. Talk to PD or your riggers, loose line stows can get your world rocked with a sabre via line dump.
I'd opt more towards tighter rubber bands. I personally use the large ones and double-wrap them and yes, I can lift my bag off the ground with 2-3 inch line stows and I don't worry about bag lock. You'd be suprised at the pulling power of your pilot chute at 120 mph. I've had one hard opening on a Sabre and it was enough to consult pd about. Fixed my lines stow method via reading this article and haven't had one in hundreds of jumps.

Read this article, hope it helps:

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/hrdopn.pdf

Blue 111's,
Tim

[gatorbait 1]

Quote

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I was under the impression that it wasn't recommended.

I did it for years and never had a problem...then I switched to the black SkyBandz (which work very well also), then I designed a stowless D-bag and have never looked back!

I would like to see that design...intrested in making one for a vector 2?
Thanks!

[BadDog 0]

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/hrdopn.pdf

[rigging65 0]

There seems to be a recurring problem with terminology when it comes to this argument. Let me lay out some terms, so we're all on the same sheet of paper here:

Line dump- the phenomenon where your lines come unstowed all at once, essentially leaving them in a pile or mass while you fall away. Resulting in an unordered line pay-out. May or may not occur at the same time as Bag-dump (see below)

Bag dump- the phenomenon where your locking stows (the ones that hold your bag closed) come out before the canopy reaches line stretch, thus letting the proverbial "cat" out of the bag before the rest of the system (ie - the lines) are at tension and ready for it to come out. Usually results in wicked openings, which may be very hard, as the canopy is inflating with very little reefing going on at all. Effectively the canopy is able to open and anchor itself with you still in freefall. Bad ju ju...

Free stowing- Refers, in the generic sense, to not using stow bands to order your lines and hold them in place. Back in the day, it was just figure-8ing your lines into the bottom of the container. Now, it can be done in several ways. I think the key to this term is that there are no stow bands in place, only locking stows (maybe). There are designs out now that don't even use locking stows.

Now that we're all reading the terms the same, let me say this: Line dump has nothing to do with slammer openings, Bag dump does.

If line dump caused hard openings (which was a theory for a bunch of years) then how come reserve don't knock the living crap out of you on opening...especially considering they're packed without reefing the nose at all? Sure they open hard, but not like a Bag-Dump canopy does.

Line dump and bag dump occur for various reasons. One is that the pilot chute is anchoring too heavily and ripping the bag off your back, thus stretching your stow bands and allowing the lines to slip out of place. Locking stows tend not to have this problem so much (providing they start off snug) because the grommets are there to take up space, and the line groups are thicker at the top end of the line group (due to cascaded lines).

I've been jumping a totally stow-less design since the end of last year and it works great. A couple of tuck tabs keep the bag locked closed and the angles cut into the flap allow the lines to provide leverage to pop the flap open once the lines pay-out, but not before. Since the tabs are tucked in the opposite direction of the force applied by the pilot chute, they are actually anchored in place by the force the pilot chute applies to the bag.

I'm jumping a Xaos loaded at about 2.1 (which is already one of the best opening canopies on the market, IMO), but I've noticed NO CHANGE in the openings since I changed away from using stow bands.

What this proves, is that all of us that have been crying BS to line-dump causing hard openings are, in my mind, vindicated from the sneers of those that swore up and down that you had to have tight stows or double stows or flat stows are tube stows...none of it matters!

Just keep the lines in order so they don't knot up, and keep the bag closed until your ready for it to open.

If you continue this line of thought, this also proves that canopies open hard because of design or slider placement (or maybe one or two other small things), not because of the lines getting loose (disregarding bag-dump, which I think is a very rare occurrence).

I know there are a couple of different designs out there for stowless bags, but let me say this: For most people, they are not the answer. They don't help your openings, they just prove that line stows aren't important when it comes to hard openings. The problem with the design, is that the bag itself is very susceptible to changes in pack volume. Stow-bands provide some flexibility in how much (or little) canopy you can keep contained in a bag. Tuck tabs don't stretch (although I'm working on that) so the bag really needs to be pretty much fitted for the individual canopy...and since humidity changes pack volume, even where you pack can make a stow-less bag fitting right an issue.

Like I said, I love my design, I think SunPath's is ok, but IMO they're overcharging for a gimic item. They can get the $$ for it because it's got their name on it (so it must be cool/good right? ). The bag proves a point, but I don't think it's got much place in general sport skydiving.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[fundgh 0]

This helps a bit because my initial reason for changing my stows was brisk openings. I have yet to find that magical combination of packing techniques. I thought maybe tighter stows might help, but this information clarifies a few things for me. I am pretty sure I just need to find the right slider location, and nose rolling combination for good openings.
However, I have had some line twists that I thought might be resulting from stowing. Any thoughts on this? Would uneven stow tension cause this, or distance from last stow to risers?

...FUN FOR ALL!

[rigging65 0]

In my opinion, there are two things that cause line twists 99% of the time: Body Position and not leaving enough slack after your last stow.

Body Position is something that you just need to handle, what else can I say about it?

As for the slack length: I never leave less than 3 feet of slack line in the bottom of my container. Since we've already been through the points about line stows not doing much except keeping the lines in order, there is no reason to insist on getting that last stow into place and leaving very little slack.

I've repaired several reserve containers over the years as a result of not leaving enough slack line. As the bag is trying to come out of the main container, the lines go under tension and one side or the other snags the corner of the reserve container. If the stow is really tight or the lines get caught "under" the reserve pack job, you can tear the whole reserve container loose. There is only usually one row of single needle holding it in place, so it doesn't take much.

Obviously this kind of snagging is going to cause uneven tensions in your lines...which is probably going to result in the bag spinning on end and giving you twists.

Just a note, for the newer jumper out there:
If you get line twists above the slider or with the slider involved in the twist, it usually (but not always) occurs because of body position. As the canopy opens up and the slider starts to come down, the wing wants to fly off in some other direction because of uneven riser tension.
If the twists occur below the slider, it's often caused by the bag getting turned on one end and spinning as the lines are paying-out. Often this is a result of there not being enough slack in after the last stow.

These certainly aren't hard and fast rules in regards to what causes line twists, but it's something I've noticed over the years!

As for uneven stow tension, sure I guess that could cause the bag to twist. Some Mfgs. make D-bags with the line stows more towards the middle of the bag so it doesn't get that "rocking" effect as it's paying out the lines, which might give it more cause to spin around once or twice.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[bigtim 0]

Good article at PD worth sharing here which talks about line dump...

2. LINE STOW METHOD
Lines should be released one stow at a time. That sounds obvious, but it isn’t as simple as it may seem. When the pilot chute first pulls the bag out
of the container, it rapidly decelerates the bag. At that instant, the laws of motion say that the lines stowed on the bag will tend to continue with the
jumper, rather than decelerate with the bag, unless a forge opposes that motion. That force is supplied by the stow bands. If the lines aren’t stowed
to the bag securely enough, they can all slip out at once. That means the stow bands attached to the bag are literally yanked right off the stowed
lines. This is known as “line dump”, and can lead to a very dangerous out of sequence opening. If the locking stows fall off, the canopy is released
from the bag and will start to open before it has reached line stretch. It starts filling with air almost instantly while canopy and lines go everywhere!
When the jumper traveling at terminal velocity finally reaches line stretch, he already has an open canopy and receives a brutal opening shock.
This scenario can damage lines, canopies, risers, and
really cause serious injuries. To prevent this from happening, the stows must be held fairly tightly so that they are only released in the proper
order. To check your stows on the ground, it should take between 8 and 12 pounds of force to unstow the lines when pulling the bag across a
smooth surface by the bridle. Use a fish scale on the bridle to check this. Larger, heavier canopies will require more force, as does a canopy
deployed at higher speeds. You can tighten your stows if they are too loose. If you use Tube Stoes, look at the instructions that were included with
them. Follow the instructions labeled "For tighter Tube Stoes”. Rubber bands can be tightened in the same way. Replace Tube Stoes or rubber
bands that appear worn. Do not wait until they break! The line stows must have between 21/2 and 3 inches of line through each stow. Some
jumpers make shorter stows because they fear bag lock malfunctions. That is not a good idea. Short stows don’t prevent bag locks, but really do
promote line dump. This is because they only have to slip a little before they are free. Remember, line dump is potentially more dangerous than a
bag lock, since it can lead to equipment damage and bodily injury, possibly incapacitating the jumper.