kansasskydiver 0 #1 May 19, 2003 I'm in a great deal of pain still from this weekends events. A fellow jumper at our dz bought a heatwave 170 but hasn't been able to jump it because he broke his ankle. So he he offered it to me and i thought it would be fun seeing as i'm going to start demoing eliptical canopies this season. so we hook it up, go up to 7, i dump at 5 and WHAMMMMM instant canopy. To add to the spanking both end cells were closed. Those didn't inflate until about 2grand when i decided to stop dicking around with them and set up an aproach and find the stall point. When i stalled one came open, then i figured out how to make the other one inflate. So ok, must have been a packing error. Pack it up again, roll the nose about 3 times, go up to 10 do a 4 way, i break at 4,5 and pull. the F*$ker opened harder than the first time! Saw stars so awhile, kinda regained my senses and went to deal with the end cell problem again. Our pilot had watched the opening from the plane and felt sorry for me. He's a rigger so he packed it for me. Went up to 10 again, did a 3 way, pulled at 4,5 and got maybe a 1/10th of a second of snivel before the damn thing popped open on me again. then only one of the endcells inflated so i had to deal with a spinning canopy. I've never had such hard openings. Not even on my sabre. After those 3 jumps i called it a day. sunday i hooked back up my sabre and enjoyed my 800ft snivles. don't know what is was, i've heard good things about the heat wave, but damn it's going to take me this week to recover for sure blue 's chris<--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #2 May 19, 2003 First I have heard about hard openings on Heatwaves. What type of rubber bands were you using? How do we move this thread to the "Gear and Rigging" thread? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #3 May 19, 2003 did the other guy (your friend) have the same problems with the canopy?? how many jumps are on the canopy?? i could be out of trim. i haven't heard this but a couple times before. i have had 3 heatwaves of my own, and have jumped many (like 10 different ones) and they all opened super soft. i would say check the trim of the canopy, and i bet you'll find it's out of trim. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #4 May 19, 2003 QuoteTo add to the spanking both end cells were closed. Those didn't inflate until about 2grand when i decided to stop dicking around with them and set up an aproach and find the stall point. When i stalled one came open, then i figured out how to make the other one inflate. Is this the first time you heard of this? Was this not told to you in your FJC? I hear all kinds of complaints about end cells...It bothers me that people don't know this...I know one person thought that this was a malfunction... Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casie 0 #5 May 19, 2003 Ouch! Get some R&R this week. ~Porn Kitty WARNING: Goldschlager causes extreme emotional outbursts! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #6 May 19, 2003 Quoteroll the nose about 3 times Ummm, don't do that. Here's how I pack my heatwave. Standards pro-pack, flake the line groups, quarter the slider, push the nose back into the packjob (make sure its straight), recheck to make sure the slider is still well quartered, roll the shit out of the tail. Make sure you're using small rubberbands. Also, you're not using some sort of huge ass PC are you? You'd have to check with your container manufacture, but if I remember correctly, on average for a 170 you're looking at a 25"-28" PC. I've had a couple snappier openings on my Heatwave, but I've never had a "slammer", even when I pack it very sloppily. The same is true for some other friends of mine that all have heatwaves. They have good openings. Here's what PISA sent me a while back for line trim specs if you want to check the canopy out more closely then just a normal field check: QuoteHEATWAVE 170 Base Line A 135 1/8" 1 & 10 A to B 2 3/4" B to C 5 3/4" 2 & 9 A to B 4 " B to C 7 1/2" 3 & 8 A to B 1 7/8" B to C 7" C to D 9 1/4" 4 - 7 A to B 2" B to C 7 7/8" C to D 9 1/4" Full Flight 8 1/4" Above D Brake Setting 2" Below C --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kansasskydiver 0 #7 May 19, 2003 ron, umm yes i have heard of end cell closure, and yes i heard it in my FJC. i teach FJC's. but explain me this. since when do you have to stall a fucking canopy to get the endcells to inflate? and why do they take 3000ft to do so? thanks...<--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kansasskydiver 0 #8 May 19, 2003 aggie, yeah i checked up on everything before jumping it. i have the standard zp wings pilot chute. the canopy has 50 jumps on it and the fellow jumper who lended it to me hadn't put any jumps on it yet due to a broken ankle the day before he recieved it. i didn't roll the nose the first time. i know you shouldn't have to, but for sake of arguement i did so to try to slow down the openings. that didn't help at all either. and yes i rolled the heck out of the tail, just like my sabre. but nothing worked. it freaking sucked is all i'm going to say<--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #9 May 19, 2003 Maybe he got one that wasn't made right or something...that's odd. Get a rigger to make you a new/bigger slider or put pockets on the slider. Yeah its a "band-aid" fix, but it might work for ya.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #10 May 19, 2003 Quoteron, umm yes i have heard of end cell closure, and yes i heard it in my FJC. i teach FJC's. but explain me this. since when do you have to stall a fucking canopy to get the endcells to inflate? and why do they take 3000ft to do so? It can be very common to have to almost stall a canopy to get the end cells to inflate. Used to happen all the time back when students went out on big 7 cells. Sometimes they nevr cleared until the landing flair. Sometimes they never cleared. Now days some people never have that...Canopies are designed better, and fly faster...Thats why I asked. Seems to me that this canopy might have issues. You can: 1. Get a pocket slider. 2. Get a small pilot chute. 3. Get another type of canopy. 4. Call the maufactorer and see what he says.. 5. Live with it. I personally would do #4 (well actually #3). I think that pocket sliders, and getting smaller pilot chutes are signs of a bad design. Didn't mean to step on your toes...seems like I must have pissed you off asking that question. But End cells being closed is not a big deal, not ideal, but not a big deal. But you made it seem like it was."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SanDiegoRW 0 #11 May 19, 2003 Yeah as a student I always got end cell closure on the 288. A nice big flare always cleared it. Of course it didn't stall because I was flying a school bus. My 150 has end cell closure now and then but usually clears before I even unstow the brakes. Sorry to hear about the harsh openings. I've had one so hard I got leg cramps and a sharp pain in my eye ball. I hope I never have one again. -Kenny Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #12 May 19, 2003 Ron, How would it be a bad design? I have a Heatwave 170 and almost 300 jumps on it with NO problems. Edit: I've got friends with Heatwaves who haven't had any problems either.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DYEVOUT 0 #13 May 19, 2003 Quote Yeah as a student I always got end cell closure on the 288. A nice big flare always cleared it. Wow, me too - a lot.I really had 'em closed, and flopping around on the Sabre 230 this weekend, but that flare inflated them real quick. ----------------=8^)---------------------- "I think that was the wrong tennis court." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #14 May 19, 2003 QuoteHow would it be a bad design? Where did I say it was a bad design? I said Quote I think that pocket sliders, and getting smaller pilot chutes are signs of a bad design. Never did I say IT was a bad design...But if you see a bunch of canopies that require pocket sliders, and smaller pilot chutes...THAT is an indication of a design problem. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kansasskydiver 0 #15 May 19, 2003 well thank god i didn't buy the canopy, and i told the guy who was letting me jump it to send it back! ron, sorry i took your response a little harsh. i guess to add to it was that having both the end cells closed on the canopy was causing a lot of troubles with the flight characteristics and made me thing twice about landing the sob. it would surge foward and backwards, let to right, depending on how much air the endcell would hold, and then spit out. the front part was folded under, not the typicall manta 288 end cell closure. the point of deep brakes, yes i have end cell closure once in awhile on my sabre 170, i can pull the rear risers after opening and get them to inflate in less than a second. with the heatwave i had to actually start a STALL to get even one to inflate. then had to hold another stall and extend the right brake to get the right one to inflate. i guess my main concern was that fact that a spinning eliptical wasn't what i needed and you shouldn't have to stall a canopy to get the endcells to inflate. i personally don't like the thought of an eliptical at 1.5 spinning up on me at 2 grand i've already hooked back up my sabre and told greg to send the damn thing back. wasn't worth the risk or blowing up or spinning up. etc. it had a nice flare to it, but the rest just doesn't even out<--- See look, pink dolphins DO exist! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #16 May 19, 2003 Chris: i have the exact canopy you jumped. i've never had any experiences as you've described. pro-packing like AggieDave mentioned is appropriate for this canopy. i use a Jim Cazer 24" ZP pilot chute/kill line/bridle, even though the container (Javelin J-4) i jump came with a 33" ZP pilot chute/kill line bridle. when i ordered the canopy, i also ordered an oversized slider as well, as advised by a fellow jumper who already had a Heatwave. it sounds to me like you may have suffered line dump, possibly caused by the larger pilot chute, if it was beind utilized. with these fixes, it should get you squared away. good luck, take care, and be safe! --Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #17 May 20, 2003 No problem...I didn't reallt take it hard....I didn't mean to sound like I was preaching... Yep, sounds like that canopy sucks. Not the TYPE...but that ONE. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nitr8 0 #18 June 12, 2003 Yea, i used to jum a HeatWave 170 and now jump a HeatWave 135. Do not role the nose as it is an eliptical! Think about it when you role the nose which cell opens first? when you downsize to a 135 you will know all about it! Just role the nose liek a bitch and dont pack it neatly! youll get the best openings you have ever had! /me i would change the world if only god gave me the source Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #19 June 12, 2003 I think you mean tail?Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aneblett 0 #20 June 12, 2003 QuoteI think you mean tail? Ok... So I am not the only one that the previous post didn't make sense to. AgeS.E.X. party #2 ..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Watcher 0 #21 June 12, 2003 If you take the entire nose and roll it one direction then yes that could be bad, but rolling the nose symetrically produces semetric openings. On my velocity (most sensitive canopy I have ever jumped) I the 3 cells on each side in the direction of the center. I leave the center cell exposed. It inflates first the helps pressurize both sides. Because the center cell is open the heading stays facing forward/more on heading.Jonathan Bartlett D-24876 AFF-I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lalapanz 0 #22 June 12, 2003 yep, sounds like a bad one. I've jumped numerous heatwaves including some test jumps as a PISA employee. Never had an opening as you describe. I do quite a bit of video and never roll the tail on mine and still getting the sweetest openings Try a different one before giving up on them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robskydiv 0 #23 June 13, 2003 Was the slider all of the way up? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #24 June 15, 2003 QuoteYep, sounds like that canopy sucks. Not the TYPE...but that ONE. Hmm, well then we have two more just like that ONE on my DZ. I only have about 40 jumps on mine. The snivel is nice, but as soon as the canopy inflates it dives hard and fast. I've tried pro and psycho packing, I've given it to more experienced jumpers to pack and jump. Same result every time - diving (not too picky about which direction it chooses either). Mine is a '135 loaded at 1.45:1. The other is a '120 owned by one of the DZ cameraflyers. He has about 1 600 jumps, about 1 000 of those on a Stilleto '135. He has same problem, nice snivelly opening initially then WHACK! (FWIW he is a rigger too). None of the tips I have read here would make any difference, they would just extend the initial snivel, delaying the inevitable dive when the canopy inflates. I've jumped a Sabre and Stilleto in the same size, both opened better. If it was just me, I might put it down to poor body position on deployment or not shifting in harness to control opening. But others have had the same issue (and I got video of two of my deployments to check my body position). And if it were the line trim that was out, wouldn't it dive consistently to one side? Me personally I'd rather have a relined Stilleto with 800 jumps on it, than my new Heatwave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #25 June 16, 2003 Well I was trying to be PC...not very good at it"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
