Please learn from my stupidity!

[airborne47 0]

With 158 jumps spread out at many DZs over a long period. I left the sport only to return three and a half years later. I bought another 170 but it's an
F-111. Haveing skipped my B license planning to just wait and get my C. I looked at the reqiurments and saw i had to make 25 landings within 10 meters. So on my last jump i went for the (target) when i saw i was going long and was in to heavy of traffic to even think of S turns. I remembered seeing an older guy who jumps a big canopy for accuracy routinly use deep brakes. So i went into deep brakes and held it! When i should have made a slight right and went for open dessert. When i saw i was still going long and heading for obsticales. I went even deeper in my brakes trying to bleed off alltitude and chose my out. I let off on my brakes and made a slight left to line up with a road and avoid the obsticales. Then flared just in time to get a little lift. But still had a hard landing! I'm positive that the only reason i walked away from it is because i had PLFs drilled into me as a Paratrooper. A female staff member came out in a golf cart obviously expecting the worst. When she saw i was walking. She chewed me out for landing (there) because of the obsticale danger. And told me i could walk back for being so stupid. I can and will take an ass chewing when deserved!!! But all she did was piss me off and make me want to leave and never come back to that DZ! When i got to the packing area. An experienced jumper TALKED TO ME and said i had scared the hell out of him riding my brakes like that. As he had thought i was going to collapse my canopy down low. That TALK ws like a kick in the gut and scared the hell out of me! I thanked him and realized just how lucky i was! I seriously considered giving the sport up becuase of it. But decieded to first of all learn from it. F... the landing area! That IS NOT a prioraty! I also decieded to UPSIZE to a 210 due to the sparadic nature of my jumping. As well as getting some canopy coaching. I fully realize not being able to jump on a consitant requlare basis is increasing my risk factor. But feel these steps combined with my self grounding on windy days. And not pushing my limits as well as being satisfied with just landing on the airport and walking a bit. Will make the risk factor exceptable. I can do S turns if there's no traffic and land pretty close to where i want. But will never again allow myself to think that i HAVE TO land where everyone else is. So for all you newer jumpers please learn from my mistake. I could have easyly killed myself had i induced a stall!! And for you experienced jumpers who see us less experienced people do stupid shit. Please TALK to us and let us know what we did and WHY it was so stupid! That's a hell of a lot more helpful then just yelling at us for being stupid without telling us why we're stupid!

[popsjumper 2]

The girl was an ass. The other guy may not be aware that braked flight is one aspect of canopy control...it's part of the A-license requirements and is included in any decent canopy control class.

Stalling in deep brakes involves some specific factors.
-Brake line length
-Turbulence

to name a couple.

Maybe your canopy is set up so that you can stall it with toggles, maybe not. Do YOU know? Did the other guy know?

Maybe wind conditions were such that a stall could happen in deep brakes. Do you know? Do you recall?


Anyway, thanks for posting and yes, there's lessons to be learned here. Thanks again.

Andy

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[wmw999 2,439]

Good post. You're a normal person, made a series of mistakes that culminated in a hard landing. Your canopy choice and PLF training helped you to recover from the mistakes with only pride dented. You used the mistake in your forward decision-making process.

That's a huge success story to me.

Everyone makes mistakes. You didn't "break the chain" but you limited the impact by other, earlier choices. Good work.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PiLFy 3]

"I remembered seeing an older guy who jumps a big canopy for accuracy routinely use deep brakes. So I went into deep brakes and held it!"

Been there_Done that_Wasn't fun... I was taught early in my student progression to sink it in if I was too high on final. "Don't worry. You won't stall it." That was on a 280 w/lengthened lines. Flash ahead to just after getting my A. I needed to sink during my pattern. I was on a regular 200 (0.93 WL). I went to 3/4 brakes, & held it for several seconds. I hardly sank @all. So, I shrugged, & let 'em up again. BAM!, insta-stall @600 feet. It kicked me 45 degrees to one side, & dove me towards the ground for a couple seconds. It scared the H*ll out of me. Two people nicely came up & explained to me how I screwed up, & almost died. Thanks Guys

[Sangi 0]

Get to know your canopy. Always get to know your canopy and gear in general.

One of the things you should've known is when your canopy stalls in deep brakes. Do it at a high altitude, try flying at different configurations and see when your canopy stalls..

Do a CP course and or read Brian Germains book on CP, there's great things you will find out that you didn't know and should've known.

Goodluck!

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[JohnRich 4]

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I bought another 170 but it's an F-111...
An experienced jumper TALKED TO ME and said i had scared the hell out of him riding my brakes like that...

An F111 canopy behaves differently in deep brakes thean a zero-porosity canopy. And since most people jump zero-P thse days, they assume that everyone else is doing so also. Therefore, they may be making incorrect judgements since your canopy is actually F111. Your canopy may not have actually been close to stalling, because F111 sinks more stable than zero-P, but it might have simply made others fear that if they presumed it was zero-P.

Like others said, you want to know exactly where that stall point is, by practicing up high. Then you'll know how far you can pull on your toggles and still be safe, when you're down low.

[PiLFy 3]

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Quote

I bought another 170 but it's an F-111...
An experienced jumper TALKED TO ME and said i had scared the hell out of him riding my brakes like that...

An F111 canopy behaves differently in deep brakes thean a zero-porosity canopy. And since most people jump zero-P thse days, they assume that everyone else is doing so also. Therefore, they may be making incorrect judgements since your canopy is actually F111. Your canopy may not have actually been close to stalling, because F111 sinks more stable than zero-P, but it might have simply made others fear that if they presumed it was zero-P.

Like others said, you want to know exactly where that stall point is, by practicing up high. Then you'll know how far you can pull on your toggles and still be safe, when you're down low.

Question,
My canopy wasn't folding back like it was about to stall. I held it in 3/4 brakes for I guess about 5-7 seconds. It didn't appear to be about to stall. I've done that drill up higher. I'm guessing the stall point gets wonky when prolonged deep brakes are used? I don't understand why the canopy stalled when I returned (abruptly) to full flight. When I was talked to. I was still shaking. I came away from it deciding to never try & sink it in like that again.

[wmw999 2,439]

I don't think that was a stall, it was a surge. A stall will rock the canopy back (or just squishy), while a surge causes it to dive forward and then lose some of its lift while it recovers.

You should learn how it behaves up high; that way you really can learn how to sink it in (I've sunk in a Diablo -- not recommended, not fun, but it meant a guaranteed flat field landing, rather than risking numerous obstacles).

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Kralovec 0]

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Question,
My canopy wasn't folding back like it was about to stall. I held it in 3/4 brakes for I guess about 5-7 seconds. It didn't appear to be about to stall. I've done that drill up higher. I'm guessing the stall point gets wonky when prolonged deep brakes are used? I don't understand why the canopy stalled when I returned (abruptly) to full flight. When I was talked to. I was still shaking. I came away from it deciding to never try & sink it in like that again.

It's funny you ask because I just heard Brian Germain talking about this on Skydive Radio episode 14. When you hold the canopy in deep brakes the nose of the canopy pitches up and increased the angle of attack. At this point there is good tension on all the suspension and steering lines. If you rapidly return to full flight, the nose of the canopy pitches back down to it's normal full flight. When this happens the tension on the suspension lines is briefly removed as the canopy is moving towards the ground faster than your body. As a result you briefly have no control over the flight of the canopy. When your bodies decent catches up with the canopy the tension is restored. If tension is restored unevenly it will cause a turn in the canopy. Similar to what happens when you shift your weight for harness turns.

[Hellis 0]

Some canopys are quite stable in deep brakes/stall.
They can even fly backwards

http://youtu.be/1twC8F2ptmU?hd=1

[riggerrob 643]

That technique works great with large, docile canopies specifically designed for accuracy competition.
As you found - if you try the same technique on another canopy, you might hurt yourself.

If you want to try that technique again, borrow an accuracy canopy and get some coaching from an experienced accuracy competitor.

In the meantime, read a manuals written for an accuracy canopy. (Performance Designs) Zero or (New England ... Eiff) Challenger Classic.

[riggerrob 643]

"

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... An F111 canopy behaves differently in deep brakes than a zero-porosity canopy. ... ...

..........................................................................

The difference between new F-111 fabric and ZP fabric is insignificant.
The big difference is in wing-loadings.
Unless the original poster is petite, he is probably flying his PD-170 at more than one pound per square foot. That is on the upper limit for NEW F-111 canopies. If an F-111 canopy has more than 100 jumps, it should only be flown at wing-loadings in the .7 pound per square foot range.

meanwhile, accuracy competitors try to keep thier wing-loadings around 0.7 pounds per square foot. It is the lighter wing-loading that makes it possible to stall a canopy - straight down - onto a tuffet and walk away.

[PiLFy 3]

Because I rent at a couple of different DZs. I tend to fly different canopies. I believe this one was a 200 Nav. There was no crease forming up the middle, or folding back. Though, I'm not sure I'd looked up the last 2-3 seconds. I went from slowed flight, to a hard dive 45 degrees to the right almost instantly. Both instructors told me on the ground that it was a stall. Being so low, it got my attention... .

You're saying it's possible & safe to sink a 1:1 WL (or higher) canopy w/o stalling? Not something I'd want to try again for fun. I'm sure it could come in handy for landing off, though.

[PiLFy 3]

I haven't checked out any of these episodes, yet. I'll have a look. Thanks.

[PiLFy 3]

I think it's safe to say I'll never jump a 7-cell BASE canopy. Not w/my back & neck. I'll see how well it translates next season, though. From a lot higher than 600 feet...

[sundevil777 102]

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I went to 3/4 brakes, & held it for several seconds. I hardly sank @all. So, I shrugged, & let 'em up again. BAM!, insta-stall @600 feet.

Your description sounds more like what is called a surge, not a stall. Letting up too quickly on the brakes causes a canopy to surge forward very quickly and it will feel like it suddenly drops very quickly. It is different than a stall, but either can kill you without sufficient altitude remaining. If you let up on the brakes a bit more slowly, the surge is not as severe, and some jumpers including tandem instructors will use that controlled surge to induce extra airspeed to get a more powerful flare.

Even on a 200 at .93 WL, you should be able to sink it in at deep brakes with an acceptable rate of descent (PLF required). The knowledge that it is possible along with the skill to do it might be needed to avoid obstacles in an off landing.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[davelepka 4]

There are a lot of factors that go into canopy flight. Canopy size, type and material, weather, wind direction, and jumper skill/experience are others. To sift through all of them, and give you a play-by-play for each one would take all day (and what should be covered in an all-day canopy control course).

Most of the info here is pretaining to one scenario or the other, and none of them apply directly to yours. Without mentioning the type of canopy, your weight, and the wind/weather conditions for the day, it's hard to tell you one way or the other what you should/could do.

However, I can give you piece of univeral advice regarding canopy control, and more specifically, canopy control in the landing pattern - don't ever do anything under 1000ft that you haven't been briefed on by a qualifed jumper, practiced on more than one jump above your hard deck, and that you feel you have a 'complete' understanding of. Below 1000ft is no place for experimentation, or coming up with last minute ideas. Stick to the basics down low, because you're out of your greatest resource in a skydive -altitude (or time, they're sort of the same once you leave the plane).

There are techinques for sinking in canopies, and your canopy might work for that, but you need to understand the in's and out's of it fully before putting it to use on an actual landing. Furthermore, you're choice not to S-turn in a busy pattern was a good one, but realize that going to deep brakes is also a disruption to the flow of traffic to anyone behind you. It's like stopping on the freeway, and not cool. Deep braked accuracy approached are typically flown in competition or practice, where they have a dedicated low pass, and everyone on the pass is looking to sink it in.

[bluetwo 0]

Thanks for sharing. I'm sure all newbies like me have started a base wishing we had done something differently or had known what the wind would do to change the way we had planned to land.

I'll make sure to get advice on anything new I wanna do from a canopy course or qualified coach. Blues

_______________________________________

[jimmytavino 16]

lots of good comments about canopy flight and deep brakes flight as well, here

but i'm gonna comment about ANy DZ that would have a golf cart available , with a staff person to drive it ,,, and which sends that Golf Cart out to ANyone.....who may have just had 'an ugly landing'...

"Pick a person with a little sympathy in their heart, and not some "expert" who would take it upon themselves to critique that poor bastard,, who is already in a flustered state of mind"

as for "I can and will take an ass chewing when deserved....."
no Sir..
unless you're jumping at a military Dz with full regular miltary procedures,,,at any Civilian DZ you do NOT have to take that treatment.

if i get this right... you landed at a distance away.. you noted obstacles,, responded to them and succeeded at NOT hitting them.. right??? could any of those who blasted you... have been able to seeeee underneath YOU as you performed your touchdown?? i doubt it...
The person who came out there,, and then LEFT, AND called you stupid.. should be ashamed of herself.. and then instead of being told.. "Your instincts to do a PLF.. was Smart......glad you're Ok " they blast you for the way you were pulling toggles...


jmy
a3914
nscr1817

[airtwardo 7]

The girl was an ass. The other guy may not be aware that braked flight is one aspect of canopy control...it's part of the A-license requirements and is included in any decent canopy control class.

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True Andy, but even more important is not doing something unexpected or unusual in the pattern, in most places a braked 'sinking' approach would be unusual.

If someone is behind you in a blind spot you're slowing down and 'coming up' at them.

Also to address another point in the thread...

Yes a Zpo sinks somewhat different than an F1-11 accuracy canopy, but essentially it will do the same thing.

The control inputs are a lot more touchy and
the line between sink & stall are narrower, but the wing can be made to 'fly' a near vertical approach and pumping the brakes to re-inflate if stalling works faster on a Zpo.

It does wash side to side in a sometimes rather sporty fashion...not good for stomping the disk, but a vertical approach is a VERY useful tool to have if you know how.

Why someone would conceivably do it, without understand how or what it does to the pattern might be good reason for the girl to be an 'ass'.

This might be a example of trying to do something that ya don't have the skill or understand to safely complete, which can cause some pain for you & those landing with you...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[PiLFy 3]

Thank You. Whichever it was? I don't want to do it again. Jumping a different canopy almost every weekend isn't speeding my progression along. Just had another deal for a nice 170 fall through today. I'll eventually buy a rig, sooner or later....

[airborne47 0]

Thanks all for the replies. What i feel was my biggest mistake and want people to learn from. Was changing my thought process from. I want to safely land at the DZ. (or an out) to. I NEED TO land in (the landing area! That was an extreamly dumb choice on my part and put me in a bad situation! I should have taken the out at alltitude! But once i was (in the pattern) I did not want to make an aggresive turn out for it. So i then tried to compensate for my mistake on a canopy i only had a handful of jumps on. And that handful of jumps was all i had made in three and a half years! As for canopy choice. i feel a 170 zero p would be ok in most situations. But want to go to a 210 because i do not get to jump as often as i should. And yes i've done deep brakes up high to see what would happen. But this was an extended flight. So after i UPSIZE i want to get with a canopy coach and just go over basics. To include emergency landings. (braked approach into tight areas etc) Also like i said i can and will take an ass chewing. But please include something constructive! her chewing me out for landing (there) Just made me think. NO shit really! While his TALK made me think of what i had done! And finally. I want to encourage EVERYONE to practice PLFs. I would really like to see DZs put in a little zip line. It would only take a couple of beams cemented into the ground and a cable. With a platform and bicycle handlebars. Then you could slide down the line let go. AND FLARE as you did a plf. Trust me that little extra training could make a world of difference someday! And what else do you have to do on bad weather days?

[airborne47 0]

Oh yeah and for those of you wondering about wing loading and weather. I'm 185 and it was mild dessert weather with hardly any winds. But i'll SAY AGAIN. I believe my number one mistake was changing my mental focus. And thus not immediatly takeing the out at alltitude!

[kd5xb 1]

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I went to 3/4 brakes, & held it for several seconds. I hardly sank @all. So, I shrugged, & let 'em up again. BAM!, insta-stall @600 feet.

Your description sounds more like what is called a surge, not a stall. Letting up too quickly on the brakes causes a canopy to surge forward very quickly and it will feel like it suddenly drops very quickly. It is different than a stall, but either can kill you without sufficient altitude remaining. If you let up on the brakes a bit more slowly, the surge is not as severe,

Assuming this WAS a surge --

Well -- is the old "double clutch" not taught any more???

I'm a jumper. Even though I don't always have money for jumps, and may not ever own a rig again, I'll always be a jumper.

[sundevil777 102]

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Well -- is the old "double clutch" not taught any more???

I don't think I have heard that term before.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am