skybytch 273 #1 May 28, 2003 I'm curious. Can anybody give a rough idea of what it costs today to get a TSO for a new reserve or container to be used in the US - both for required testing and paperwork? What kind of testing is involved? And on a related subject, how many and/or what kinds of modifications can be made to a container design before a new TSO is required? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CRWBUDDHA 0 #2 May 28, 2003 Contact the Manufacturers and ask them........... If all else fails, Contact FAA in Atlanta, Engineering Section Chief to get a list of current requirements to fulfill a new TSO........... You'll be surprised at how much is required to fulfill the requirements and more so at how much lyou may have taken for granted.......... Perhaps you will publish word for word what you discover, thereby educating the masses on what they may also very well take for granted....... Cheers and patience.............. CRWBUDDHA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #3 May 28, 2003 Quote Contact the Manufacturers and ask them........... If all else fails, Contact FAA in Atlanta, Engineering Section Chief to get a list of current requirements to fulfill a new TSO........... You'll be surprised at how much is required to fulfill the requirements and more so at how much lyou may have taken for granted.......... Perhaps you will publish word for word what you discover, thereby educating the masses on what they may also very well take for granted....... Cheers and patience.............. CRWBUDDHA I heard that French certifications are much tougher. Can anybody elaborate on that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #4 May 28, 2003 QuoteI'm curious. Can anybody give a rough idea of what it costs today to get a TSO for a new reserve or container to be used in the US - both for required testing and paperwork? Not sure, but it can vary widely. Depends on what you mean by "new". For example, is the evolution from a Talon to a Talon2 to a VooDoo involve a "new" design? You may find reference to the same TSO for each, which may indicate a much lower cost for the VooDoo as opposed to the original Talon. Then there is a "new" unit like the Wings. What would it cost compared to a VooDoo? I think you may have to be a bit more specific. As in the Tempo, will the FAA accept the foreign equivalent of the TSO as meeting the requirements? That would reduce the cost as well. I'm not an accountant, but would you include the R&D costs as part of the cost of the TSO? Perhaps accounting practices from one firm to the next may influence the answers you get. QuoteWhat kind of testing is involved? It is probably a bit obsolete, but the TSO standards can be found in PPM. QuoteAnd on a related subject, how many and/or what kinds of modifications can be made to a container design before a new TSO is required? This is open to interpretation and as with most things with the FAA will depend on the individual you are talking to at the time.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #5 May 28, 2003 >And on a related subject, how many and/or what kinds of > modifications can be made to a container design before a new TSO > is required? As I think even the more recent Vectors are covered under the original Wonderhog TSO - quite a lot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #6 May 28, 2003 QuoteI'm curious. Can anybody give a rough idea of what it costs today to get a TSO for a new reserve or container to be used in the US - both for required testing and paperwork? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The last time (1994-1997) I helped Rigging Innovations with drop tests (P-124A/Aviator Pilot Emergency Parachute), Sandy Reid estimated that it cost US$800 per drop. Figuring 65 to 100 drop tests, I would not begin a TSO testing program with less than US$100,000. Yes, I know that my figures include a healthy "fudge factor", but if you are pushing the edge of the envelope, you can expect to break a few prototypes, which means repeating some of the drop tests. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What kind of testing is involved? Lots! Dan Poynter (www.parapublishing.com/etc) publishes three books on this subject: "How to Get a TSO for Parachutes," written by Manley Butler in 1984 ISBN 0-930747-00-3 "TSO Procedures" written by the FAA in 1987. "TSO System, a guide for manufacturers," written by the FAA Northwest Mountain Region. Also the latest standards for TSO C23E should be available on the FAA website. To obtain a TSO, you have to do a variety of drop tests - at both low and high speeds - with various weights of rubber dummies that demonstrate all openings in less than 3 seconds and within G-loading limits. Instrumentation for measuring G-loading can cost thousands of dollars. Heavy weight/high speed drop tests can easily exceed 340 pounds and 205 knots - far more than humans can handle on a regular basis - so rubber dummies are dropped instead. You also have to measure rates of descent. The fun stuff comes late in the drop test program when humans start jumping the test items. Then you get to test sub-terminal openings, cutaways (with main container both empty and full), line twists, RSL, , AAD, cold-soaked, heat-soaked, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And on a related subject, how many and/or what kinds of modifications can be made to a container design before a new TSO is required? Hee! Hee! The definitions of "minor change" and "major change" differ from one FAA region to the next. For example, Relative Workshops still builds Micron harness/containers under the old (1970s vintage) Wonderhog TSO C23B. To their credit, Relative Workshop has done numerous drop tests since the 1970s, but the FAA has never insisted on RWS updating their TSO. On the other hand, Para-Phernalia builds Softie Seat Pilot Emergency Parachutes (PEP) under the same TSO as their Softie back packs. To the best of my knowledge, no-one has every jumped a Softie seatpack. The FAA has accepted Rigging Innovations' definition of "minor change" to include the whole Flexon, '94 Talon, Talon 2, Talon 3, Talon FS, Voodoo, Telesis 2 and Genera line because they all use the same Stealth reserve pilotchute and variations on the same freebag. While the P124A/Aviator PEP uses the same Stealth pilotchute and a similar freebag, R.I. repeated all the drop tests because they were also TSOing a new canopy. R.I. started the P124A drop test program, but canopy manufacturer Precision Aerodynamics completed the last few heavy weight/high speed drop tests. Canopy and container manufacturers often cooperate to share the huge expense of drop tests. Oh, and once you have completed the TSO drop test program, the boring part begins, because now the FAA wants manufacturers to create a huge paper trail that audits all production items to ensure that they are close copies of the drop test items. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #7 May 28, 2003 QuoteAnd on a related subject, how many and/or what kinds of modifications can be made to a container design before a new TSO is required? Technically, anything that changes the functional design of the TSO'd pieces of the system (ie- if you do something to radically change the harness design or how the reserve system functions) you need to re-TSO. Of course, a lot of the changes you might put into a rig are already "industry standards" so the changes can be passed through with that notation on them and they may not require anything more than confidence drops. Keep in mind, a TSO is issued to a process and location, as well as a functional design. The FAA wants you to show them that what you've built will meet the standards they put out, but what they're actually certifying is the process by which you built it. What the TSO is saying, is that if you always use these specific materials, cut using these patterns, assembled in the manner you set forth in your MOS sheets, inspected using the Inspectors and methods you lay out, you will end up with the same product every time, and that product has been proven. Even if you change physical locations of your shop, the FAA has to come out and look your new location over. Because the physical layout is part of your TSO package. So when you talk about a TSO'd piece of equipment, what you're really talking about it the process it went through to be "born". It's all traceable, certified and can be reproduced. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #8 May 28, 2003 QuoteQuoteAnd on a related subject, how many and/or what kinds of modifications can be made to a container design before a new TSO is required? Technically, anything that changes the functional design of the TSO'd pieces of the system (ie- if you do something to radically change the harness design or how the reserve system functions) you need to re-TSO. Of course, a lot of the changes you might put into a rig are already "industry standards" so the changes can be passed through with that notation on them and they may not require anything more than confidence drops. Keep in mind, a TSO is issued to a process and location, as well as a functional design. The FAA wants you to show them that what you've built will meet the standards they put out, but what they're actually certifying is the process by which you built it. What the TSO is saying, is that if you always use these specific materials, cut using these patterns, assembled in the manner you set forth in your MOS sheets, inspected using the Inspectors and methods you lay out, you will end up with the same product every time, and that product has been proven. Even if you change physical locations of your shop, the FAA has to come out and look your new location over. Because the physical layout is part of your TSO package. So when you talk about a TSO'd piece of equipment, what you're really talking about it the process it went through to be "born". It's all traceable, certified and can be reproduced. Ryan is exactly right with this description of the TSO process/ product cycle. If one looks closely at a TSO label one will notice a set of parenthesis at the end of the TSO version. This is done so that modifications and / or different versions can be made utilizing the the same TSO certification, version A, B, C, 1, 2, 3 etc. Minor changes can be "bundled" and sent to the FAA every six months or so ( at least at the Long Beach MIDO). This is also how manufacturers "grandfather" new versions (some of which bear little or no resemblance to their predecessors) on to existing TSO's. Some area MIDO's are much more strict about bending or stretching the the modification criteria. Current TSO cost.......usually far more than it's worth for some years to come. Mick Cottle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
