non mini dv

[Helmut 0]

Anyone jumping anything that records to an SD card? Tired of tapes etc and want to start doing video again. Any ideas. HD would be nice too.

[Stumpy 284]

keep an eye out for DSE's upcoming review of the sony CX7....

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[DSE 5]

Panasonic got me a new SD3 yesterday to replace the SD1 that had been sent to me. Thus far, impressive. One jump, belly only, it managed gradients and hard lines just fine (these are the torture tests for highly compressed media.
Attached is a screen grab from the camera.
Workflow (PITA at this time) is:
~Install stupid-ass Panasonic SDHD card reader software.
~Install Elecard converter software (so that your NLE can read it, Panasonic isn't the same AVCHD as everyone else)
~Transfer AVCHD over to computer
~Convert it to MPEG2/m2t stream. On a Pentium 4, single core, it takes about 1.25 realtime, so not horrible. It would be *much* faster on a faster system. I wish Elecard worked on a Mac. Haven't installed it under Bootcamp yet.
~Edit
~Output

The Elecard stream isn't the same HDV that comes from your HDV camera, so your NLE likely isn't optimzed for it, and render time isn't fast. As you can see in the image though, the quality is very good. Not HDV good, but damn good for a 1K investment.
The CX7 is better in terms of pic quality. I had to send this one back today, but should have another soon, as I've asked for an extended review sample. I'll also see how the mag editor feels about a "Skydivers only" review.

[speedamigo 0]

from what I've found out, the now discountinued sd3 was replaced by the sd5, which receives pretty good reviews throughout, making it a tough competitor to the cx7.

did you get your hands on a sd5 yet, DSE, or did you do some more testing with the sd3?

if the sd5 is skydive-proof it might be a great alternative, as it sells for about 20% less (here in europe) and doesn't require sony's proprietary memory format.

thanks & blue sky

[DSE 5]

I've shot with the SD5, not the SD3. The SD5 is mostly a repackaged SD1 with a better encoder and industry-standard file info.
It could be easily used for skydiving as an alternative to the Sony CX7. The cards are more expensive, and still require drivers on your system, but that's a fairly insignificant point.

[speedamigo 0]

thanks for your reply
so skydive-wise it seems to do fine, that's good news.

sdhc more expensive than memory stick pro duo? well, over here even the fastest sdhc card is still cheaper than the considerably slower memory-stick equivalent.

and you're saying that quality-wise they are pretty much the same!?

[DSE 5]

Quote

thanks for your reply

and you're saying that quality-wise they are pretty much the same!?

No, not saying that at all. Just saying it's an alternative to Sony.
Sony has been developing MPEG encoders for 10+ years. This is Panasonic's first foray into MPEG. Which is odd...they've been very vocal and anti-MPEG for the past 10 years, anti-GOP, anti-1920HD...now all of a sudden, they've jumped on the MPEG/GOP/1920 bandwagon.
Sony's picture is better. More saturated, less blocky, and (I believe) that Panasonic doesn't make DCT frames on a non-I frame block. This last sentence is entirely supposition pulled outta my backside, based on eyeballs, not frame examinations. Is this important? Kinda, but not really. Unless you're going from the sky to a bonfire in the same frame sequence.

[speedamigo 0]

Well, I bet you're right. Yet there's always some better. However I think for the size and price the SD5 is a nice treat (the price advantage over the Sony even pays me a 8GB SDHC and a wide-angle lens).

Since I intend to use the camera for other sports stuff as well (climbing, snowboarding) I really appreciate the one-hand operation of the SD5 ... no need to take the left glove off to zoom or let go with both hands when climbing. Furthermore the SD5 is 5mm smaller in width ... not negligible when side mounting.

The only thing I'm concerned about is its low-light performance. I heard it's even a bit worse than the Sony. What do you think, is it still usable for some sunset track dives or will this lighting condition already result in heavy noise?

Thanks

[DSE 5]

I don't understand your "one hand" operation comment; the Panny is no different than the Sony, Canon, or JVC AVCHD camcorders in that regard. No need to use two hands on any of the consumer grade cams.
IMO, the image quality and light sensitivity of the SD5 make it a no-go for me. However;
A-I'm pretty biased against any Panasonic camera that isn't Varicam
B-Sony and Canon simply have the best DSP of any camcorder available in the low-cost category.
C-As for me, top mount is the way to go, so 5mm doesn't matter much to me.
D-Memory for the Canon/Sony AVCHD camcorders is less costly, less hassle than the Panasonic SDHC cards.
I don't think the SD5 is a "bad camera" but rather not the best deal on the block. If the 5mm is a big issue, that's a point that is very much worth looking at. Sacrificing camera quality and image quality for 5mm isn't my idea of the right thing to do, but I"m not the one wearing the camera on the side of my helmet.

[mircan 0]

Just a side note, I`m pretty sure that Panasonic does not have LANC-like port, so what is the situation with camera indicators like cameye/hypeye (and if there is no tally light too...)?
How do you handle that? Just go on without it?
I did that with my first canon and it was a pain in the a*s.

dudeist skydiver #42

[skydance1954 0]

I've got a question for everyone: once the technical, format and compatibility issues are fully resolved to the comfort of our particular segment of the market, what means do we have to keep permanent storage of these videos? Do we now utilize ever-increasing space on our already-full computer hard drives?

Granted, endless mini-DV tapes are a bit of a pain, but I keep my tapes pretty much forever because I've always got customers coming back asking for tandem videos that they've lost, or in the case of those a few years back when we were still using VHS, were taped over by a family member for some TV show or another. Also fun jumpers and teams I film can and do come back much later and request footage I've shot. So permanent storage of footage is an issue for me.

What I wouldn't like very much would be to have the added task of downloading the memory sticks to whatever each day, or (shudder) each jump to a permanent format. That's going to increase our workload to, IMHO, and unacceptable degree. There's no real gain for me if this ultimately becomes the case.

Mike Ashley
D-18460
Canadian A-666

[Icon134 0]

unfortunately mike this is a problem that will occur regardless of how the format change... there is likely to be a time that you will no longer be able to read your DV tapes...

VHS is practically all but nonexistent in the market today (they are still around but not as much...)

Unfortunately archiving data (video/audio/photos) is only likely to become more of a problem as technologies change... I suppose the only saving grace is that the price of data storage i.e. hard drives, DVD type media, etc is constantly getting less expensive...

although I was intrigued when I read that the price to manufacture a blu-ray disk was comparable to typical DVD... and it can hold 4 times as much data...

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[speedamigo 0]

Well as much as I appreciate your feedback maybe you're a little bit biased. Even when considered with the necessary precaution, serious reviews don't look that bad for the Panny.

As for the one-hand control: the CX7 comes with a touch-screen that will require a second hand for many functions whereas the Panny can be fully controlled with one hand. O yeah, and what about the very sluggish manual control on the Sony?

I haven't figured out yet which number of the measurements relates to the width as they are not very consistent but it might even be that the Sony is roughly 10mm wider. Agreed, top-mounting would be the way to go, however I'm pretty big already, so adding a camera on top even makes me taller and prone to bounce the camera. Furthermore, sooner or later even though that will result in the same height-problem I'll opt for a Canon EOS which has to be top-mounted ... now where do I put the video camera?

So, even when disregarding the higher price, the Sony can't convince fully either (furthermore I bet it's not great in low-light either nor does it come with a lanc port).

Is there any alternative out there - compact like the CX7/SD5 and flash-card based, since I don't think a HDD is the best option for high-altitude/outdoor use. Or should I jump on the miniDV wagon, even though I got the processing power for AVCHD and think it's the way to go in the consumer segment on the long run.

Do you think Canon will join the battle for compact flash-based cameras? Basically a HG10 with flash memory and which is skydive-proof ...

[DSE 5]

I freely admit my bias against Panasonic consumer cams. They're a lower-quality cam, and always have been. Not just my opinion, it's the shared opinion of many reviewers and users.
As far as "serious review," I review cams as part of my living writing for various magazines, and I reviewed the resolution charts as openly and fairly as with any camera. The SD5 is the FIRST GENERATION MPEG cam from Panasonic, the company that has very loudly spoken out against MPEG as an acquisition format. I feel this is why their image quality is significantly less in some areas vs Canon, Sony, or JVC, all of whom have been in the MPEG game for at least 5 years, and in the case of Sony/JVC, for nearly 10 years.

The Sony has no more need to touch a screen than any other camera of it's sort. You can't do a fade to black with the Panny with one hand either. All basic functionality of the two cams is essentially identical, as are all the various AVCHD cams.
The CX7 is very good in low light, in practical terms it's the best of the lot, with Canon coming up very, very close behind. Both have superior DSP because again...they've both got a lot of experience with MPEG algorithms. Panasonic does not.
Yes, Canon is moving to the Flash-based storage as well. No, HDD cannot be used for skydiving.
No AVCHD camcorder will come with a LANC port, LANC is a tape-protocol, there is no tape involved with AVCHD, and there never will be, ever.
I don't know what "sluggish manual control" you're referring to, other than the boot time. If the cam is on, it's immediate.
I've just spent the entire week using the CX7 as a crash cam experiment, and very impressed with its overall performance.
Either way, you seem pretty determined to own the Panasonic, so not sure why the question is being asked. Cards cost more, cards require special drivers, picture is inferior, lens grade is inferior, codec isn't supported by everything out there (panasonic isn't standard like Canon, JVC, and Sony are), but if it's what you want, buy it and enjoy!

As far as storage, get used to storing on HDD. It's the way of the future. In my case, I bought a half TB drive for the season, cost me 199.00. I store everything on there. If you need to find a tape, you've got to re-edit it. All I need is the date of the jump, it's found, and the edit/finished version is immediately accessible. No muss, no fuss, no hunting for tape (even though I've got them).

[skydance1954 0]

You're most likely correct. I actually have a number of 8-mm tapes that I need to convert over to digital medium, but don't have a device to play them on at this time. Although I'm sure that I could probably get an old 8-mm camera at the local pawn shop for cheap. Still, you're right. At some point I'm going to have to archive all this tape to something else.

Ah, joy!

Mike Ashley
D-18460
Canadian A-666

[speedamigo 0]

Well, you sure got your points. Don't get me wrong, I'm not really determined to buy the Panny, I think I might even gonna wait this one out for the next generation to reach the stores. I'm just really skeptic towards opinions that say "this is better, period".

Isn't AVCHD said to have been developed by Sony and Panasonic?

With manual control I meant focus, white balance, exposure, etc .. the Sony is clearly focused on the simple point-and-shooter whereas the Panny definitely offers much more and better control over these factors in manual mode, also thanks to the better screen (higher resolution) which is a quite a bit of a factor as both of them are missing a viewfinder.

I definitely agree that HDD is the way to go, I was never a fan of tapes.