andy2 0 #1 June 7, 2003 what happens to a cypres at 12 years? I am assuming it doesn't have a device that kills it at 12 years, so can you still use them after their age runs up? I mean, how whack can it be if its 12 years and 1 day old? Or is there something I am missing? --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #2 June 7, 2003 It's illegal to use when its service life is up. The FAA mandates that ADDs must be maintained and used in accordance with the manufacturer's directions. So basically, it becomes a paperweight, or a toy for mad-scientist skydivers to experiment with. Oh, and I think you can trade it in for a discount on a new Cypres.Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #3 June 7, 2003 whats the risk here that it will malfunction and cause a premature deployment? Has this happened to anyone? --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #4 June 7, 2003 Well, since a rigger can't (legally) pack up a rig with an out-of-date Cypres, I don't think that you'll have much luck finding that information. Also, I don't think there are many Cypres units that are too old to be in service yet.Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #5 June 7, 2003 airtec started making them in the early 90s? --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #6 June 7, 2003 Actually, the service life is 12 years + 3 months, but your question still stands. Helmut can't say what happens after that, so if you find a way to experiment, you can be a test pilot. How many other electronic devices do you know that are as reliable after 12 years? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #7 June 7, 2003 Quoteairtec started making them in the early 90s? I believe they were first produced in 1991.Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beej 0 #8 June 8, 2003 I have a casio watch that I bought in 1981 that still works :0)..mind you, it cant kill me ---------------------------------------------------- If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,067 #9 June 8, 2003 >How many other electronic devices do you know that are as reliable after 12 years? There are plenty of avionics (aircraft radios, ADF's, alternator regulators etx) that work after 30 years, without the regular maintenance that the cypres gets. There are few wearout mechanisms for something like a Cypres. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #10 June 8, 2003 ASTRA's don't die."Slow down! You are too young to be moving that fast!" Old Man Crawfish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #11 June 9, 2003 ^^^ But then again we do see more astra malfunctions than cypres malfunctions, dont we? --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #12 June 9, 2003 QuoteBut then again we do see more astra malfunctions than cypres malfunctions, dont we? Do we? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #13 June 9, 2003 Andy2 where is your proof that Astra's malfunction more often than a cypres malfunctions? dont post without info to back it up. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpy 0 #14 June 9, 2003 Quote>How many other electronic devices do you know that are as reliable after 12 years? There are plenty of avionics (aircraft radios, ADF's, alternator regulators etx) that work after 30 years, without the regular maintenance that the cypres gets. There are few wearout mechanisms for something like a Cypres. But an aircraft radio can't misfire at 8,000 ft and destroy your reserve when you doing head down. They have no idea what will happen's after 12 years thats the problem.. maybe it will be fine but maybe is not a nice word when it comes to people lives.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #15 June 9, 2003 I'm going to post anyway with out backing up this up. I've persanally witnessed an astra fire at 10 grand. It was turned on prior to donning the rig for that jump. Nothing out of the ordinary. I'm aware of a couple others but have no "direct" knowledge except seeing the astra days after the fact and listening to the story. Also, andy2 asked a question, that wasn't a statement. I knew what he meant, and being this is a question and answer forum, don't ya think we can lighten up a little and allow for some inconcistancies in our sentence structure? Bottom line is the public tends not to find out about a lot of things. Field replaceable cutters on Cypres make it so Airtec or SSK don't find out about find out about every incident. They just sell another cutter. Astra? Couldn't tell ya. As for the original question about outdated Cypres, Jessicakes is correct. It's not legal for the rigger to maintain a rig with an outside of the manufactures specs.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #16 June 9, 2003 I personaly have witnessed two cypres misfires at over 9,000 feet and one in the plane....I just dont believe the cypres is better than astra argument. now me personaly, I dont jump an AAD so dont have a preference of one over the other. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #17 June 9, 2003 Marcus, Are these "missfires" documented and if so where? Is there a reason you do not jump an AAD? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,067 #18 June 9, 2003 >But an aircraft radio can't misfire at 8,000 ft and destroy your reserve > when you doing head down. A loss of navigational instruments while flying in IMC in a mountainous area will kill you even deader than having your reserve open at 8000 feet. > They have no idea what will happen's after 12 years thats the > problem.. maybe it will be fine but maybe is not a nice word when it > comes to people lives.. You're contradicting yourself here. It's not OK to use a device past its useful life, but OK to take your rig and reserve to speeds far in excess of what they were designed for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #19 June 9, 2003 [QUOTE]Andy2 where is your proof that Astra's malfunction more often than a cypres malfunctions? dont post without info to back it up.[/QUOTE] Yeah sorry, I really thought I phrased that as a question. I don't know! I only began skydiving a few months ago. I've been researching the hell out of AADs as they are pricey and I am poor. So far in my research I have noted that people talk about Astra misfires, but I rarely hear about cypres misfires. This could just be the way the system is set up? I want to know, but maybe its set up in a way that I will never. Regardless, I innately trust the cypres as the most reliable AAD on the market. Maybe that is a downfall. --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,067 #20 June 9, 2003 >So far in my research I have noted that people talk about Astra > misfires, but I rarely hear about cypres misfires. A few notes, gleaned from talking to a lot of people (including the manufacturers): Astras simply calculate freefall speed and altitude, then fire if altitude is between X and Y and you're faster than Z. This can lead to a misfire if a sudden transient (like an impact on the rig, or a sudden change in orientation) changes the pressure radically. Early Astras had the speed threshold set fairly low, and they had a lot of misfires. This was corrected in later models; new Astras are fairly immune to misfires, but the same transient problem exists on them. The Cypres does physical-law checking. If it sees a pressure transient that goes from a pressure altitude of 1800 feet to 900 feet to 1700 feet, it's smart enough to know that you probably didn't bounce back up to 1700 feet. We cannot accelerate towards the ground any faster than 32 fps^2, and it takes this into account. This helps prevent a lot of misfires. There is still the very basic problem that the Cypres senses air pressure, and the air pressure on your back changes when you open your parachute in a way that's hard to 'filter out.' Overall, Cypreses misfire less often than Astras, but Astras don't misfire a lot. The Astra might be a good choice if you want to be able to turn the thing off under canopy; a Cypres might be a better idea if you are liable to forget to turn your AAD off at the end of the day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #21 June 10, 2003 QuoteThere are plenty of avionics (aircraft radios, ADF's, alternator regulators etx) that work after 30 years, without the regular maintenance that the cypres gets. And there are plenty that don't, even with repeated visits to the avionics shop. Short (no pun intended) of an electrical fire, a major malfunction of a piece of avionics is usually not catastrophic. We demand an extremely high degree of reliability from a Cypres that we do not demand of other electronics, so we should not be surprised that Airtec would err on the side of caution. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #22 June 10, 2003 The three cypres fires that I have seen were with my eye's. as far as being documented I'm not sure. one was from a guy in a porter near the radio antennae. the other two were in freefall. the cypres were later sent into SKS for eval. I moved away from FL before I could find out any further. as far as me not jumping an AAD. I just can't afford it right now. I will buy one and soon. and it will probably be a Cypres. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpy 0 #23 June 10, 2003 Quote > They have no idea what will happen's after 12 years thats the > problem.. maybe it will be fine but maybe is not a nice word when it > comes to people lives.. You're contradicting yourself here. It's not OK to use a device past its useful life, but OK to take your rig and reserve to speeds far in excess of what they were designed for? If you are not intentionaly deploying your reserve in the head down possition then you are not using it beyong the speed it was designed for. Many containers now are desgined for head down.. freefly friendly and are advertised to be so. I beleive that this means they have been designed with these speeds in mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #24 June 10, 2003 QuoteIf you are not intentionaly deploying your reserve in the head down possition then you are not using it beyong the speed it was designed for. So if you unintentionally deploy your main or reserve head down, you're still within the specs? Quotefreefly friendly and are advertised to be so. I beleive that this means they have been designed with these speeds in mind. I'd check that if you make decissions based on this....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #25 June 10, 2003 QuoteIf you are not intentionaly deploying your reserve in the head down possition then you are not using it beyong the speed it was designed for... I couldn't disagree more! ANY time you overspeed or overload your equipment you're operating outside mfgs. spec., regardless of if you deploy or not, because there is absolutely no way that you can assure that your canopy won't deploy AT ANY GIVEN TIME! No one that has a premi was expecting it, planning for it, or even ready for it! If you're overload or overgross, you're outside the spec. End of story. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
