High Definition DVD issue settled ......AND THE WINNER IS....Blu Ray

[goobersnuftda 0]

Blu Ray
CLICKY

Looks like the last nail in the coffin came from a company called Wal-Mart. No more support for Toshibas HD-DVD format from means no more sales from the #1 retailer of DVD disks.

I am glad that there is a winner but also sad and warry about there being no compeitition. With another player out there in the field, there is always the need to drive costs down on players, DVD burners and of the disk it's self. Let's not hope that the evil b*stards take advantage of their new victory and try to hose all of us to recoup their investment in a short as time as possible.

Anyone find the best price on a burner and set top player?

[beowulf 1]

Sony's biggest competition is still plain old dvd's. It's going to be hard to get everyone to replace their DVD collection.

[goobersnuftda 0]

Very true, I have a number of DVD players that are Region/Zone free and play anything from NTSC to PAL. Burn anything from the internet and the thing plays absolutely any DVD I can throw at it (Divx too).

Now with the controlled HDMI Blu-ray, we are back to the same old controlling what region of disk you are ALLOWED to watch.

I have one of those in line sound supression samplers that takes the edge off overly loud commercials and way too loud car chaise scenes in movies, with HDMI, there is nothing to accept that like the good old RCA or composite jacks.

Now that Blu Ray won, I still see a 10 year gap in people upgrading to buy it. Normal DVD's rule, they are cheap as borsh to buy, burn and play on. There are a limited few that must be in the upper 99th percentile in performance but at that level, you pay for it.

[DSE 5]

Now that Blu Ray won, I still see a 10 year gap in people upgrading to buy it.

How much would you like to wager Blu-ray won't be around in 10 years, anymore than VHS is today?

[diablopilot 2]

I wouldn't touch that bet with a 10 foot pole.

BetaMax anyone?

How about LaserDisc?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[PhreeZone 20]

DVD was standerdized in 1995 and didn't hit mainstream with traction until 1997-1998.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[racine 0]

Multiple formats don't make for low prices. It's good that there's only one top tier format, since it means there's only one top tier video collection. I've been waiting to find out which HiDef DVD format would be the new Betamax. Now I'll wait for widespread licensing and price drops, just like with every major technology upgrade. I just paid $40 for a 1080i upconverter with divx from walmart. It's not as nice as bluray, but the difference in quality is nowhere near the thousands of dollars it would cost me to upgrade my whole collection, much of which isn't even available in BluRay yet.

Please folks, don't bitch about new technology being expensive. Invariably, new technology is expensive, then it ages and becomes affordable. It's the way of the world. Just look at the most complicated machine in most homes, the VCR. More complex than a turbocharged direct injected car with all the options, and available new for under $30. Before you know it, Blockbuster will have previously viewed BluRays for $10.

Think, then type.

[DSE 5]

Well....truth is (usually) that multiple choices mean lowwer prices, because consumers have more choices, so price becomes the competition point.
In the case of HD DVD and BD, BD knew not to play the price war game. Toshiba and Micro$oft tried valiantly to buy the market, losing nearly a billion $ in their quest to become the market leader. Every major in the industry knew that HD DVD was a short format, missing what the market demanded. They kicked out early, too early. Neither format was standardized when the first HD DVD players/discs began to ship. In short, Toshiba fucked the consumer, knew they were fucking the consumer, but figured they'd fix it later. Oops, they couldn't.
BD consortium pledged that they would not buy the market, not lose price, and set up long-term agreements with the various studios and distributors, going about it as business usually runs. Toshiba paid monstrous incentives (nearly 500M in all) to studios as incentives (BD eventually paid out $$ too), but that too, failed them in the end.
Between Netflix, Walmart, BestBuy, Blockbuster...HD DVD was doomed from October on. As I'd mentioned back then, my company bet very, very heavily on BD, investing wads of money we couldn't afford to lose, because we believed our gut, market analysis, and what we knew was coming. I'm grateful to have had this one come out OK for us, it got scary when we learned of the 200M "donation" from Toshiba to Dreamworks and Paramount.
BD is the next long-term format, it'll be pricey for another year, and then be 'normal.' SD DVDs will go the way of VHS shortly after Xmas of 2008. HD is the most rapid integration of any format in the history of television at all ends. People are buying HD displays 3 times as fast as people bought color TV's and nearly 7 times as fast as folks bought flat panel displays in the first year.
Most folks won't "replace" their collections with BD, they'll just augment them. Example, I have approx 2500 DVDs in my collection, and about 75BD discs. Only 3 are duplicate titles. Some are absolutely worth having in HD. Others...I'm fine with upsampled.
Expect BD to make a bigger dent in your DZ world faster than you might think. Certainly faster than VHS to DVD did. Get used to the concept of shooting and editing on a 'puter, cuz it's coming faster than you're likely ready to experience. Had a DZO call me just tonight about how to deliver HD both on disc and over the web. For about a year to 18 months, our industry will be able to charge gross premium prices for HD, I think. The wedding/event industry is still getting away with it, and expected to do so until about the end of this year, maybe a little less. My anticipation is that DZ delivery will be about a year to a year and a half behind the WEVA industry. I guess we'll see....

[Canuck 0]

Can someone explain these upconversion DVD players to me? Surely they don't produce a tue HD picture off a standard DVD, do they?

Canuck

[PhreeZone 20]

They don't play it at full HD res but they instead resample it to play it with a better compression that simulates high resolution then it natively has. I've seen movies paused and the upconverted is blockier and not as clear as a true HD but its better then the regular DVD player quality.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Laszloimage 0]

Spot,
Thank you for your input about this subject.
You're right as always on this field...
Any info about BlueRay recorderes?
Will be anything like that on the market any soon for an affordable price, so we can make true HD videos for costumers?
That would be great...
Thanks!
-Laszlo-

[DSE 5]

Quote

Spot,
Thank you for your input about this subject.
You're right as always on this field...
Any info about BlueRay recorderes?
Will be anything like that on the market any soon for an affordable price, so we can make true HD videos for costumers?
That would be great...
Thanks!
-Laszlo-

BD recorders are already dropping price, and expected that the third gen will be in the "affordable" with 6-7th gen being "cheap. We're currently in second gen.
Bear in mind, if you're a PC user, you can burn an AVCHD Blu-ray compatible disc on a DVD 5 and standard DVD burner. DVDSP is supposed to do it, but thus far, I've not had a disc that a BD1 or BD300 will read. Conversely, I've made a few dozen BD discs using Sony Vegas and Adobe Premiere.

[chrismgtis 0]

Quote

I wouldn't touch that bet with a 10 foot pole.

BetaMax anyone?

How about LaserDisc?

Laserdisc. Wow. When I was in school I always thought laserdiscs were some stupid thing the teachers thought would be cool to have. And they never seemed to be able to figure out how to play them. I didn't know back then that it was an actual attempt at something the public would use.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

I didn't know back then that it was an actual attempt at something the public would use.

I know a skydiver with a huge laserdisc collection. Real movies, not the stuff we watched on them in school. I didn't know anybody had laserdiscs at home until I saw his collection a few years ago.

Dave

[DougH 270]

I remember watching the fugitive on laser disk while staying at my aunt and uncles house a long while back. They were big spenders.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[The111 1]

Quote

Now that Blu Ray won, I still see a 10 year gap in people upgrading to buy it.

How much would you like to wager Blu-ray won't be around in 10 years, anymore than VHS is today?

Spot, I'm not sure I understand which side of this issue you are on. Could you elaborate?

My completely un-educated guess in that within 2-3 years BD players will be very prevalent in many houses. And in 10 years, they'll probably still be around even if something better exists, just as a lot of people still have VCR's.

I'll probably buy a burner for my PC in the next year or two, if the media prices drop.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[DSE 5]

I'm on the side of BD, as I've mentioned in other posts, we financially bet the farm on BD nearly 2 years ago, and have authored BD and UMD (Dead format) for the past two years. Our local DZ is the first to offer BD in the world, so far as I know (delivered a few last summer and fall).

However, BD, like VHS and other formats before it, will not have a long life. 7 years is the expected span of increase, and it's expected in 10 years that downloads and VOD will replace BD as a high definition format delivery mechanism.
You can buy VHS players and tapes today, but who overall (other than childrens markets) is using them? I have an old reel-to-reel video system, but can't use it anywhere. My point (which could have been worded better), is that Blu-ray isn't the end-all/be-all/final word in HD delivery. It's just the next step, and a damn big step. and now that HD DVD is finally buried and dead as it should have been 2 years ago, we can go about the business of getting serious with HD delivery.

[peggs82 0]

DSE...I'm having the hardest time getting used to your new Avatar

[DSE 5]

I'm that attractive, yeah?

[MichaelMoore 0]

Quote

Now that Blu Ray won, I still see a 10 year gap in people upgrading to buy it.

It just goes to show that history repeats itself once again and proves that electronics consumers are the stupidest people on the planet.

It’s funny how people tout Blu-ray as superior when both formats are fully capable of storing a full-length movie at 1080p

HD-DVD was more accessible by allowing backwards compatibility with standard recordable DVD’s. This was a major advantage for independent video producers.

While Blu-Ray has a higher capacity, it currently costs thousands of dollars to do any type of detailed menu authoring.

Thank you consumers. Your ignorance has once again led us down the path of higher production costs.

[DSE 5]

Quote

Quote

Now that Blu Ray won, I still see a 10 year gap in people upgrading to buy it.

It just goes to show that history repeats itself once again and proves that electronics consumers are the stupidest people on the planet.

It’s funny how people tout Blu-ray as superior when both formats are fully capable of storing a full-length movie at 1080p

HD-DVD was more accessible by allowing backwards compatibility with standard recordable DVD’s. This was a major advantage for independent video producers.

While Blu-Ray has a higher capacity, it currently costs thousands of dollars to do any type of detailed menu authoring.

Thank you consumers. Your ignorance has once again led us down the path of higher production costs.

BD is backwards compatible. BD is forward compatible with what manufacturers in both entertainment and data storage have planned.
You've obviously been reading the AVS forums, as one of your paragraphs is almost verbatim the FUD that has been posted there, over and over.
We're now burning BD discs at a rate of roughly 2 per day, in prep for a large event that requires all display being 1080 60p
No point in arguing the subject, the superior, forward-looking format won, and nope...consumers aren't stupid. In fact, in my opinion, they're brilliant. Consumers saw through Toshiba "buying" the market by losing money, selling players that cost 220.00 to build, at a firesale price of $99.00. Consumers saw through the limited offerings, and dual-packaging of SD with the HD DVD. Consumers saw through the exceptionally short term benefits of HD DVD.
BD does not "cost thousands of dollars to do detailed menu authoring." More FUD.
Authoring BD can be as simple as making an SDDVD ,or if scripting is involved, yes, it takes someone who knows how to write scripts to do it, just as it does with SD DVD. Independent film producers (like myself) don't very often use scripts, but if they do, modifying existing script, ripping script from existing DVDs, or downloading myriad script from the web and altering it is very easy (scripting is per-project, and may not be blanket-pasted from one project to another). I'll wager 100.00 that no one here has once used scripting for their standard tandem DVDs.

[FreeflyChile 0]

By the 'consumers'. of course you mean the people that have Blu-ray players (still mostly early adopters and PS3 owners), not the populous as a whole, right?

I mean, I think the format was superior and did not buy an HD-DVD player because I thought that Blu-ray would win. The only reason I have a BD player is because it comes with the PS3. The biggest reason I thought that Blu-ray would win (in the beginning of this) was *because* of it's inclusion in the PS3.

If the PS3 came with HD-DVD, do you think that we'd be talking about HD-DVD as the winner?

[MichaelMoore 0]

Quote

and nope...consumers aren't stupid. In fact, in my opinion, they're brilliant.

Consumers are borderline retarded when it comes to electronics.

Go to Fry’s. Walk over to the computer flat screen monitors.
Notice how great the picture looks on all the really expensive monitors and how dark and blurry the cheap monitors are. Then hit the “menu” button and see how bright the screen really is. The store is feeding a weaker signal to all the cheaper monitors.

Go to Best Buy. Go to the flat screen “high definition” televisions and look at how they are being fed their signal. A standard definition coaxial is feeding all these HD TV’s and customers are bragging about how much better the picture is.

[DSE 5]

Quote

By the 'consumers'. of course you mean the people that have Blu-ray players (still mostly early adopters and PS3 owners), not the populous as a whole, right?

I mean, I think the format was superior and did not buy an HD-DVD player because I thought that Blu-ray would win. The only reason I have a BD player is because it comes with the PS3. The biggest reason I thought that Blu-ray would win (in the beginning of this) was *because* of it's inclusion in the PS3.

If the PS3 came with HD-DVD, do you think that we'd be talking about HD-DVD as the winner?

Nope, I don't.
BD didn't win based on PS3 players, polls show that very few PS3 users play DVDs on their PS3 game system.
Consumers were buying BD discs and BD players much faster than they were buying HD DVD players and discs, at 2:1 before Xmas, and at nearly 4:1 after Xmas. At no point did HD DVD disc sales remotely approach sales #'s of higher cost BD discs, and at no point did HD DVD approach the profit margin of BD, although the sales of HD DVD machines did climb higher than set-top BD players when Toshiba announced the $99.00 special pricing.
HD DVD isn't forward-looking enough to the future. The HD DVD format died nearly 30 months ago, but Bill Gates chose to resurrect it, I believe in hopes of staving off any disc format until VOD could become a reality (still a long way off). He benefits most from VOD, not disc sales.
Consumers understand why BD is superior, and given that HD DVD had a larger marketing budget, bought nearly double the marketing space, and sold at a loss to buy the market and STILL lost, it shows that the consumer "gets it."

Quote

Michael=Consumers are borderline retarded when it comes to electronics.

Obviously they're not. You've voiced your opinion as to why HD DVD is better, based on what you're reading in the AVS forums, which is predominantly a bunch of braying jackasses that are interested in pirating DVDs rather than working on real projects.
-'HD DVD is backwards compatible'....So is BD.
-'HD DVD is a better picture quality'....nope...Same file formats on both formats of discs. VC1, MPEG 2, AVCHD are both common formats. Except BD also accepts DivX formats, and NeroShowtime formats, but HD DVD didn't.
-'HD DVD is cheaper to author' Wrong again. Cost is identical at authoring stage, and no more difficult than authoring an SD disc.
-'HD DVD is easier for the consumer' How? it's a format that requires a new player, just as BD is, just as DVD required a new player over CD players.
-'HD DVD requires significant changes for replicators' Now THIS one is true. One grain of truth in the FUD constantly posed in this discussion. Just as in the early days of DVD, replicators are required to upgrade. As they will be for other future formats.
-'HD DVD is cheaper to replicate' Nope...cost of HD DVD was expected to be in the 6.00 range for small-format runs. BD is in the exact same range. Licensing fees for BD are actually less than licensing fees for HD DVD.
-HD DVD doesn't have all the copy guards that BD has, and HDCP isn't an issue on HD DVD' Wrong again...HD DVD has EXACTLY the same parameters for HDCP as BD does. Otherwise, no studio would have looked at HD DVD as a delivery mechanism.
-HD DVD is better for consumers because it's easier for independent film producers to use'
How exactly?
Please explain exactly, specifically, how anyone benefits from HD DVD more than they benefit from Blu-ray. I've heard about every argument there is, and have only heard one intelligent argument (and it's not been brought up here).
Consumers, studios, manufacturers alike all saw the significantly greater benefits of Blu-ray over HD DVD, and the superior format won. Stock prices for *both* camps rose significantly when Toshiba admitted defeat.
But I am looking forward to an intelligent, cogent, and specific argument about how anyone benefits from HD DVD over Blu-ray.

A mantra of "consumers are stupid" won't fly.

[MichaelMoore 0]

Quote

Obviously they're not. You've voiced your opinion as to why HD DVD is better, based on what you're reading in the AVS forums, which is predominantly a bunch of braying jackasses that are interested in pirating DVDs rather than working on real projects.
-'HD DVD is backwards compatible'....So is BD.
-'HD DVD is a better picture quality'....nope...Same file formats on both formats of discs. VC1, MPEG 2, AVCHD are both common formats. Except BD also accepts DivX formats, and NeroShowtime formats, but HD DVD didn't.
-'HD DVD is cheaper to author' Wrong again. Cost is identical at authoring stage, and no more difficult than authoring an SD disc.
-'HD DVD is easier for the consumer' How? it's a format that requires a new player, just as BD is, just as DVD required a new player over CD players.
-'HD DVD requires significant changes for replicators' Now THIS one is true. One grain of truth in the FUD constantly posed in this discussion. Just as in the early days of DVD, replicators are required to upgrade. As they will be for other future formats.
-'HD DVD is cheaper to replicate' Nope...cost of HD DVD was expected to be in the 6.00 range for small-format runs. BD is in the exact same range. Licensing fees for BD are actually less than licensing fees for HD DVD.
-HD DVD doesn't have all the copy guards that BD has, and HDCP isn't an issue on HD DVD' Wrong again...HD DVD has EXACTLY the same parameters for HDCP as BD does. Otherwise, no studio would have looked at HD DVD as a delivery mechanism.
-HD DVD is better for consumers because it's easier for independent film producers to use'
How exactly?
Please explain exactly, specifically, how anyone benefits from HD DVD more than they benefit from Blu-ray. I've heard about every argument there is, and have only heard one intelligent argument (and it's not been brought up here).
Consumers, studios, manufacturers alike all saw the significantly greater benefits of Blu-ray over HD DVD, and the superior format won. Stock prices for *both* camps rose significantly when Toshiba admitted defeat.
But I am looking forward to an intelligent, cogent, and specific argument about how anyone benefits from HD DVD over Blu-ray.

A mantra of "consumers are stupid" won't fly.

Seems like you are starting an argument with yourself. I never said anything quoted above, nor do I frequent the AVS forums.