Unstable 9 #1 June 9, 2003 This has been bugging me for quite some time. Help me out here guys.... I am currently jumping my first rig, which i've put around 70 jumps on so far. The reserve which came with the container is a Temp150, has a max recommended suspended weight of 165. It is a new reserve, about a year old w/ no rides. I myslef, fully geared up, am closer to 180. People who i talk to have agreed that it really isn't a problem, but I know that the 165 pound weight limit means something. What are the risks that I am assuming when i jump with this reserve? Am I an added liability to the DZ? What are some problems that i can run into with this? Any advice that can be offered would be greatly appreciated. Blue Skyz, sds Edited to add: Is this thing TSO for higher? Why have a different TSO than a recommended suspended weight? WhatsUP???!?!?!!?=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 June 9, 2003 Added risks? You could blow it up on opening and die. Also remember, that the max weight is set not only by what the company wants to see for its limits, but also what they want to recommend for their own legal protection. I know PD test dropped their reserves to a much higher weight then their listed weight, as for the PISA Tempo? Well, when it comes to reserves, I'm VERY much a PD snob... I highly recommend that people jump reserves within their listed max weight; however, I do understand that I'm loading my reserve past that and do so with the full understanding that it is my responsiblity if anything should happen.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #3 June 9, 2003 heres the thing, i know the guy who designed the tempo reserve. the reserves are very stong actually. they are rated at the same weight and speed as any reserve out there (assuming it's c23-c, some that are new at c23-d) the reason for the lighter max weight is for the best flight performance. you will get the best glide, and flare from that wing loading. i am about 200 out the door, and i have used a tempo 150 before, and it landed great. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #4 June 9, 2003 This is what i need to know here. Lots of people i know overload their max suspended weights, and if i am going to be one of those i need to step up and understand everything i am doing here. I guess what I should be asking aside from policy is "Is this unsafe in the event that i do need to go to plan B" If the reserve is tested and proven to work above the recommended, then I would assume (bad word choice) so. However, if that Recommended weight is set for more structural purposes, I need to sell it fast and invest in a new reserve. anybody have additional comments? sds edited to add: If it comes to as issue of maximizing glide ratio and flare power, all i am interested in during a reserve ride is A)Not dying and B) old schoold 5-point PLF=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #5 June 9, 2003 QuoteI know PD test dropped their reserves to a much higher weight then their listed weight, as for the PISA Tempo? Well, when it comes to reserves, I'm VERY much a PD snob... Don't let your gear snobbery blind you. All reserves sold in the US have to meet TSO certification and they are all drop-tested well in excess of anything you or I will ever load them at. The PISA Tempo has been certified under TSO C23c and they have been drop tested with 300 pounds at 200MPH and passed. Don't confuse manufacturer max with TSO limits. One is for liability, one is for certification.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #6 June 9, 2003 QuoteI guess what I should be asking aside from policy is "Is this unsafe in the event that i do need to go to plan B" That's one of the best questions you could have asked and it's a question only you can answer. Realize that when you have to use your reserve, pretty much everything may have gone to shit. At 1000', with no hope of ever getting back to the DZ, faced with a tight landing area....well, is that really the place that you want to jump something you're uncomfortable with, at a higher wingloading, for the first time? Play it safe. Stick with something around 1:1 - 1.15:1 in a reserve for your experience level. Heck, I have a Tempo v2.0 210 crammed into my Mirage instead of the PD-160 that is supposed to fit in there. I like having as much square footage as possible.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #7 June 9, 2003 Quoteheres the thing, i know the guy who designed the tempo reserve. the reserves are very stong actually. they are rated at the same weight and speed as any reserve out there (assuming it's c23-c, some that are new at c23-d) the reason for the lighter max weight is for the best flight performance. you will get the best glide, and flare from that wing loading. i am about 200 out the door, and i have used a tempo 150 before, and it landed great. later Why would anyone tell a new jumper looking for advice that it is cool to overload a canopy when the people who designed and made the damn thing think it is unsafe? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #8 June 9, 2003 Quotei am about 200 out the door, and i have used a tempo 150 before, and it landed great. You have 1100 jumps. He has 75. Big difference. Unstable - For a first rig I recommend a reserve that is no smaller than your body weight in pounds (loading approx. 1.1) - and bigger is better. Technically you are overloading that 150; it can be said that you are running a higher risk of having that canopy blow up on a terminal opening. But beyond that additional risk, here's a couple other questions to ask yourself - can I land this all F111 7 cell at this wingloading downwind into a tight landing area at sunset (because reserve rides don't always happen at noon directly over the landing area) and walk away? Do I want my first reserve ride to be on a canopy that is smaller than the smallest thing I've ever jumped? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #9 June 9, 2003 If your Tempo is only one year old, chances are it has the span-wise reinforcing tapes across the bottom skin. It will probably survive opening shock at heavier weights, but your ankles may not survive the landing. All reserve designs have to demonstrate openings at more than 254 pounds and 150 knots. TSO requirements involve deliberate overload tests - typically 340 pounds at 205 knots - under perfect conditions. If you approach those limits under less than ideal conditions, you vastly increase the chances of tearing any canopy. Incidentally, PISA re-tested their reserves (circa 2001) at the heavier weights and higher airspeeds allowed under TSO-C23D, but declined to publish higher weight limits. Which brings us to the second point. Manufacturers publish weight limits smaller than 254 pounds - for their smaller reserve canopies - because that is what they expect your ankles to survive landing. With anything less than perfect conditions and thousands of jumps, a 254 pound guy will probably not walk away from landing a Tempo 120, even though the canopy survived opening shock. Beezy Shaw - from Precision Aerodynamics - said that when you over load most 1980s vintage reserves (i.e. Ravens) they have short toggle strokes and abrupt stalls. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #10 June 9, 2003 Shawn, Consider this, how many small 7-cells have you jumped and landed. They fly much different then a 9-cell. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #11 June 9, 2003 QuoteShawn, Consider this, how many small 7-cells have you jumped and landed. They fly much different then a 9-cell. Sparky I've jumped a total of 5 canopies. three of which were 7cells. I am familiar with how the 7cell behaves in comparison to the 9cell, but i have never jumped a 7cell (F1-11) at 150 ft^2. This also makes me very uncomfortable. However, my next canopy which i will move to sometime this fall will be a 150^2" The general agreement of people i have asked so far are somewhere in the area of "If you do have a reserve ride, you will be very gratefull to have anything above your head." Somehow i don't buy that. Here in Kansas, the Entire State is a Landing area. Where i Jump, the nearest tree (note that tree is NOT plural) is literally just over a mile away. Nearest powerlines are about 5/6 of a mile, and nearest body of water is the sandy Kansas River which is only a couple of feet deep. If you want flat, we got flat. I feel pretty sure that in the event of a reserve ride, i can steer this thing somewhere landable. If anybody has any advise, keep it comming! I've learned more in this thread about reserves than in my entire skydiving career! sds=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #12 June 9, 2003 QuoteHere in Kansas, the Entire State is a Landing area. Where i Jump, the nearest tree (note that tree is NOT plural) is literally just over a mile away. Nearest powerlines are about 5/6 of a mile, and nearest body of water is the sandy Kansas River which is only a couple of feet deep. If you want flat, we got flat. I feel pretty sure that in the event of a reserve ride, i can steer this thing somewhere landable. What makes you think you'll have your first reserve ride at your DZ...or in Kansas for that matter? You need to have a reserve that you can fly and land when everything, including your LZ, has gone to hell.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,992 #13 June 9, 2003 >All reserves sold in the US have to meet TSO certification and they > are all drop-tested well in excess of anything you or I will ever load > them at. This is a very dangerous assumption to make. Overloaded reserves can (and have) blown up - even ones tested to TSO limits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #14 June 9, 2003 Quote>All reserves sold in the US have to meet TSO certification and they > are all drop-tested well in excess of anything you or I will ever load > them at. This is a very dangerous assumption to make. Overloaded reserves can (and have) blown up - even ones tested to TSO limits. ...especially considering that the TSO tests are based on "in new condition" canopies. Get the canopy dirty/wet/used/old and the canopy may very well not take the stress you decide to deal out to it. Remember, TSO certification is about getting the process by which a product is made certified. It doesn't say anything about what "a 5 year old, three times ridden and landed in the sand" canopy will do the next time it opens... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #15 June 9, 2003 Shawn, You would be well advised to jump a reserve that is within the limits of you exit weight. When you get a 1000 jumps under your belt, then you can do something stupid and jump an overloaded reserve canopy. Remember, when you go to you reserve, fun jumping is over. You are then trying to save your life! SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #16 June 9, 2003 Now I'm just in the Delima(sp?) i feared. I honestly know i need a larger reserve, but even with trade-in it will be about a month until i can get the $ for a tempo 170. Boogie this weekend, i'll think it over, but i may end up on rental gear. THis is all about how much risk a person is willing to assume. I just need to sit down and think this one out. Thanks for all your help everybody, it was invaluable. Best regards to all, shaun smith=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #17 June 10, 2003 Shawn, You appear to have you head on right. Thank you for taking the time to ask and then reflect on what has been said. If you keep thinking things over like this you might last 20 years or more in this thing we call a sport. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #18 June 10, 2003 Don't give me too much credit, I still don't know what I'm going to do. sds=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #19 June 10, 2003 QuoteWhy would anyone tell a new jumper looking for advice that it is cool to overload a canopy when the people who designed and made the damn thing think it is unsafe? ok, i guess i wasn't too clear. i never ment to say "i recomend your overload your reserve." i totally agree it is the dumbest thing you could ever do. but what i was stating, is that it will handle the weight, it may not be a good idea to load it at that, but it can do it. i recomend, to anyone, for a first rig or any rig for that matter, a wing loading of 1 to 1. it is the best thing to do, and just because you want a small rig or be cool, isn't a reason to get a small reserve, period. in fact, there isn't a reason in the world i can really think of to have a small reserve *and yes, i do have a smaller reserve, i know this. they didn't really want to build me a rig to fit a 85 and a bigger reserve* later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #20 June 10, 2003 Sidenote: I've never heard once in my short time jumping someone come down after a reserve ride and go "damn, I wish my reserve was smaller..."--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #21 June 10, 2003 QuoteSidenote: I've never heard once in my short time jumping someone come down after a reserve ride and go "damn, I wish my reserve was smaller..." exacally. i have seen the oposite. i have a friend that broke his back, because he had a small reserve, and was just wishing he had a larger reserve. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #22 June 10, 2003 Kelly, My apologies, I miss-interrupted what you said. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #23 June 10, 2003 QuoteKelly, My apologies, I miss-interrupted what you said. no apologies needed, i really should of made it clear what i was trying to say. i don't want to give the impression at all that i think it's good to overload any reserve.later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #24 June 10, 2003 QuoteThis is a very dangerous assumption to make. Overloaded reserves can (and have) blown up - even ones tested to TSO limits. Definitely true, Bill. I was just trying to show that all reserves have to be TSO certified for use in the USA and that just because a reserve wasn't made by PD doesn't mean that it's garbage.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #25 June 10, 2003 The high speed, high weight test involves 3 drop and must be made with the same test item, canopy, harness/container ect. Minor repairs may be made between drops but it must be the same item. Thats alot of stress. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
