Are tandem stills underpriced?

[craivn 0]

Any video guy or gal who has a still camera, should think about charging extra for tandem stills!!! Please read my story (it's a bit wordy, so please be patient)...

I started shooting video a couple of years ago at a small Cessna DZ in Texas. No one there had a still camera, so the DZ did not offer stills along with the video package. Sometime later, I got a new helmet with a Sony HD video and an Olympus E-410 still camera (a great 10MP SLR that weighs only 12oz. btw).

When I showed the photos to the tandem customers, most of them gladly paid $20 cash + $5 for printing/shipping for a single 8x10. Many asked for 2 photos. So, I started offering a CD with about 100-150 pictures including family/friends ground shots, before/after shots, plane ride smiles, and of course the freefall grins, for $60 cash (or $70, if they go through manifest). 4 out of 5 customers ended up buying the stills, on top of having already paid $90 for DVD video! Sometimes I have to be a bit of a sales person to make the sale, but the pictures most of the time sell themselves, as soon as the customers look at them!!! But at the end of a busy Saturday, a $200-300 of extra cash in the pocket is always nice to have (and no, I don't jump in Hawaii).

Most DZs throw in digital stills for free in addition to the video, which, in my opinion is a foregone income for both, DZ and videographers. The rationale is simple: most of tandems who want to purchase video will do it regardless whether you offer stills along with it or not. So, why not "add value" by charging more for stills? In addition, as a camera flyer, if you're going to put additional strain on your neck by having a still camera, shouldn't you get compensated for it? Any experienced jumper who has their picture taken by a professional camera flier will gladly pay $20 for a formation picture with them in it. Why should tandems get their stills for free?

Forgive me for a long-winded note. It's my FIRST post to this group, so I'll be bringing beer this weekend!!!

[jtval 0]

Quote

Any experienced jumper who has their picture taken by a professional camera flier will gladly pay $20 for a formation picture with them in it. Why should tandems get their stills for free?

The main reason most dz's (imo) charge for the package is that the students are already paying upto 300 for the deal. (not to mention the ridiculous expense to drive to the dz)

At my old DZ we got $25 for vid OR stills and $45 for BOTH

It's be great to be able to get the prices you get on every jump but when you do 10 jumps/day there;s not much time to be a salesman.

I would meet the student bs a little bit, jump with them edit the video (and D/L the pictures) then pack my rig just in time to introduce myself to the next student.

My time to be a salesman was during the video editing process. I'd talk to them while I was editing etc. but by that time the price was already set.
if they wanted to upgrade and get the stills it was an addition $20.

My photos

My Videos

[Springbock 0]

Our Dropzone offers Stills for an extra of 30€ (50$) which goes straight to the Videoguy. I find this not to much as the Equipment is expensive and you need quiet some skills to get good shots. personally I rate Phostos much higher than Video as you can not hang a Video on a wall.

Take care up there!

[stratostar 5]

Quote

Most DZs throw in digital stills for free in addition to the video

No your mistaken, it was and has NEVER been that way for years, we camera flyers were able to sell our stills for the market rate on top of the video, and the DZ DIDN'T GET SQUAT BUT FREE ADVERTISMENT. It wasn't till just in the last few years that once everyone started strapping on cameras and calling themselfs "photographers" that only the retards in the sports let mangers and DZO's shit on their dinner plate and the fools dug in spoon full after spoon full, to the point now, where people like you think it's S.O.P. to get 40 bucks for both.

The standared rate of pay industry wide has been 35 for video alone. Stills ranged from 15 to 20 an 8x10 depending on who took it, and a disk of digital stills in high res 35 to 60 usd, depending on where in the country your are.

Funny thing is the cost to get in or stay in the game keeps going up and the rate of pay keep going down, and you can find a ton of fools wiling to pimp out their ass and take it without so much as a reach around or a peck on the cheek, and they get on here and tell you how much money they made by taking such a huge pay cut and how good they have it today because of great mangers and DZO's.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[BMFin 0]

Quote

personally I rate Phostos much higher than Video as you can not hang a Video on a wall.

I also rate stills higher for sure, but that doesnt matter. Only thing that matters is how high the customer rates the video compared to the stills..

Our DZ charges the customer 50euros (78dollars) for video. We vidiots get 20euros worth of "jumpmoney". (not cash) On top of that some of the vidiots sell stills also. I just started doing stills and so far I have been asking 25 euros cash from a CD with around 50 pics. (I rather sell them CD without publishing rights, than go thru the hustle of printing)

I also feel that the pics will sell themselves very well. However, I somehow feel like 25-30 euros is the max I want to ask them, since they are already paying 270 + 50 for the tandem + video.

[mwabd1 0]

Quote

We vidiots get 20euros worth of "jumpmoney". (not cash)

Ok, Stratostar.......you are 100% right and your post should be framed on a wall for all to see!!!!!

I guess I am on the more traditional pay scale, $45 for vid and stills, $35 for one or the other. Which is pretty much the same pay scale that we were on when we all had 35mm cameras, now the price of the gear does not justify charging the customer more if the vidiot cannot take quality pictures! If you have a solid product...IE.....you are capable of getting the shots on every jump than maybe its time to negotiate a raise.

.......I hereby reject your reality and instead choose to insert my own!

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Most DZs throw in digital stills for free in addition to the video

I'm not sure where you get the idea that 'most' DZs do one thing or another.

I know where I jump, we used to offer video alone, with still being an extra charge. Many customers bought both, and others could be sold the stills after the fact. Camera flyers were paid one rate for video, and an additional amount if the stills were sold.

A couple years ago, we bundled them together in a package, and began to offer only the package. The number of sales remained about the same, but now every jump is video and stills, and the camera flyer is paid for both.

It would appear as if the stills are 'thrown in', but in reality, they are 'forced in', and it's worked out very well for all involved. The camera flyers make more money, and don't have to sell anything to anyone, the deal is done before they board the plane.

In reality, each DZ is unique in their arrangement. Does the DZO run the video consession, or is there a 'head' video guy who runs the show? Who does the edits? Who pays for the editing equipment? Who pays for tapes/CDs/DVDs or other consumables? Does the customer get prints, or a CD with the pics?

All of these facotrs will influence the pay scale, and unless all things are equal, or you account for these factors, comparing one DZ to another is by and large a waste of time.

[oldgit 0]

Quote

No your mistaken, it was and has NEVER been that way for years, we camera flyers were able to sell our stills for the market rate on top of the video, and the DZ DIDN'T GET SQUAT BUT FREE ADVERTISMENT. It wasn't till just in the last few years that once everyone started strapping on cameras and calling themselfs "photographers

Never a truer word spoken
Because the price and size of cameras have fallen every twat and his dog has one and because they jump for free every dz uses them even though their product is normally crap or greatly inferior.

[Fast 0]

Quote

Quote

No your mistaken, it was and has NEVER been that way for years, we camera flyers were able to sell our stills for the market rate on top of the video, and the DZ DIDN'T GET SQUAT BUT FREE ADVERTISMENT. It wasn't till just in the last few years that once everyone started strapping on cameras and calling themselfs "photographers

Never a truer word spoken
Because the price and size of cameras have fallen every twat and his dog has one and because they jump for free every dz uses them even though their product is normally crap or greatly inferior.

My dropzone only sells a package with both. I don't think that the pay we get is unreasonable either. The customer is paying $89 for both video and stills and that to me seems like a reasonable price. Much like Dave said, we just force stills on everyone. If we were doing a video only thing, it would be cheaper.

Also, as the person in charge of video for my dz, for the most part, I don't want my video guys trying to "sell" the customer. The tandem masters are already doing that at our dz trying to get the person enthused to go towards the student program. That to me is more important than the videographers trying to sell the pictures. So it just makes sense to just offer it all as one package and charge accordingly.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[diablopilot 2]

Amen brother.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[kefran 0]

Quote

Quote

No your mistaken, it was and has NEVER been that way for years, we camera flyers were able to sell our stills for the market rate on top of the video, and the DZ DIDN'T GET SQUAT BUT FREE ADVERTISMENT. It wasn't till just in the last few years that once everyone started strapping on cameras and calling themselfs "photographers

Never a truer word spoken
Because the price and size of cameras have fallen every twat and his dog has one and because they jump for free every dz uses them even though their product is normally crap or greatly inferior.

being probably one of the mentionned "photographers" it's reaaaaalllly motivating to feel so considerated by the "old dogs".
I'm sorry guys but my neck is as precious as yours.

I guess that we, crap-selling vidiots beginners, have 1 real thing to learn from that : the old dogs seem to prefer insulting us rather than give us useful tips and tricks.

cheers anyway.

--------------------------------------------------
I never used 2 rocks to start a fire ... this is called evolution !

[NickDG 23]

>>Because the price and size of cameras have fallen every twat and his dog has one
That's too funny. It's exactly what I thought about you guys in the early 80s when one piece video camcorders come out. Up until then we were still wearing a separate recording deck on our chests.

It's a mute discussion anyway. Tandem wise you're all going to be phased out eventually by DZOs in favor of Handy Cams . . .

NickD

[stratostar 5]

Why should I give way for free what took years of study in books and trial by fire and investment in money and time and many jumps to learn to a bunch of young punk asses who not only try steal your shooting style, but also try to steal your slot you've had for years by working your ass off and making a major investment in gear and to a dz, only to have you guys sell out and work for less then the market rate in order to suck ass and take way work from the old dogs.

Not saying your one of those (for the record) but it's people like that who fuck up the industry by being willing to pimp out their ass for half the going rate and an ego stroke with some smoke blown up their ass for an extra tickel. And there is a never ending supply of them to replace you, willing to do it for even less money and only a free jump.

You want to learn all this shit then sign up for a class or go buy a book or a video or god for bid go learn it the way most of us did, the hard way.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[base_nz 0]

Quote

Why should I give way for free what took years of study in books and trial by fire and investment in money and time and many jumps to learn to a bunch of young punk asses who not only try steal your shooting style, but also try to steal your slot you've had for years by working your ass off and making a major investment in gear and to a dz, only to have you guys sell out and work for less then the market rate in order to suck ass and take way work from the old dogs.



Not saying your one of those (for the record) but it's people like that who fuck up the industry by being willing to pimp out their ass for half the going rate and an ego stroke with some smoke blown up their ass for an extra tickel. And there is a never ending supply of them to replace you, willing to do it for even less money and only a free jump.

You want to learn all this shit then sign up for a class or go buy a book or a video or god for bid go learn it the way most of us did, the hard way.

Some of us are doing it the HARDWAY..... Maybe your still living 30 years ago, A lot has changed since then more jumpers, cheaper gear, bigger use of wrist cameras...ect. Its fucking hard to become a good cameraman at a GOOD dropzone!

By the sounds of it you should be having a go at the DZ rather than
people like me trying to get jumps together when you have fuck all money. If they want to sell and inferior product at a cheaper price ( yes im probably not as good a cameraman as you) thats not my problem!!!

PLEASE.... Tell all of us NEW camera flyers without 30 years experience how to get to become a success?.. all the packing,Driving, Gardening, Wiping asses ive done to get the gear and jumps ive got....and now id like to hear the HARD WAY!!!

There are just more camera flyers now and less jobs....The big thing to remember though is we dont manifest ourselves with that tandem ....thats the dropzones job!!!.... (well it is at ours )

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[kefran 0]

Quote

Why should I give way for free what took years of study in books and trial by fire and investment in money and time and many jumps to learn to a bunch of young punk asses who not only try steal your shooting style, but also try to steal your slot you've had for years by working your ass off and making a major investment in gear and to a dz, only to have you guys sell out and work for less then the market rate in order to suck ass and take way work from the old dogs.

Not saying your one of those (for the record) but it's people like that who fuck up the industry by being willing to pimp out their ass for half the going rate and an ego stroke with some smoke blown up their ass for an extra tickel. And there is a never ending supply of them to replace you, willing to do it for even less money and only a free jump.

You want to learn all this shit then sign up for a class or go buy a book or a video or god for bid go learn it the way most of us did, the hard way.

just one new word for your vocabulary : Share ...

--------------------------------------------------
I never used 2 rocks to start a fire ... this is called evolution !

[billvon 2,989]

>I guess that we, crap-selling vidiots beginners, have 1 real thing to
>learn from that : the old dogs seem to prefer insulting us rather than give
>us useful tips and tricks.

Useful Tip of the Day:

Spend your first few hundred video jumps doing everything you can to learn about video. Do 4-way and pay your own slot. Get on bigways; offer free video. Go up with newer jumpers and shoot them for free. These can be even more useful because they move in unexpected ways and react to the camera. Shoot from beneath (experience for tandems) above (4-way) and on level (to get ready for AFF.) Learn to put yourself where you want to be right on exit. Jump with some tandems (or simulated tandems) _without_ a camera to learn how they launch and change fallrate.

THEN ask for money. Your product will be better, the customer will be happier and you will have earned your money.

[kefran 0]

Quote

>I guess that we, crap-selling vidiots beginners, have 1 real thing to
>learn from that : the old dogs seem to prefer insulting us rather than give
>us useful tips and tricks.

Useful Tip of the Day:

Spend your first few hundred video jumps doing everything you can to learn about video. Do 4-way and pay your own slot. Get on bigways; offer free video. Go up with newer jumpers and shoot them for free. These can be even more useful because they move in unexpected ways and react to the camera. Shoot from beneath (experience for tandems) above (4-way) and on level (to get ready for AFF.) Learn to put yourself where you want to be right on exit. Jump with some tandems (or simulated tandems) _without_ a camera to learn how they launch and change fallrate.

THEN ask for money. Your product will be better, the customer will be happier and you will have earned your money.

this could have been the "useful tip of the day" 2 years ago. but thanks anyway ! it's been now 2 years that i fly the cam + stills for paying customers. Probably because i got some very good advices by some "old dogs" willing to share their experience, just for the pleasure of it.
They didn't forgot the fact that they can learn from beginners too.

i'm out ...

I just wish to you all a great season !

--------------------------------------------------
I never used 2 rocks to start a fire ... this is called evolution !

[craivn 0]

Thanks to all of you who answered to the main point of my post and shared their tips and experiences of doing/selling videos and stills. It looks like some of the DZs in Europe (and fewer in the US) have already embraced the "added value of stills" at $50-$70 on top of the video. So hopefully others will move in the same direction soon.

I fully agree that the ability to "sell" stills is unique to every operation, and depends on the dynamics of the place, the customer profile, and of course, the quality of the product. But, if one can earn double the rate that he/she gets for doing video by selling stills, it may be worth making the time for the "sale", by, say, having a packer (if there's one who you trust ), or even letting another videographer take the next customer (again, if there is one ).

As far as what's reasonable... 6-7 years ago, $1/gal of Jet A, a brand new PD reserve for $750, and $10 staff rates were reasonable! The reality changed and if a happy tandem customer is willing to pay $60 for a set of stills that he/she likes (on top of having paid $250-300 for a jump with video), that seems "reasonable" to me, so why give the stills up for $20 (or worse off, for free)!

That seems to be the new reality, so why not embrace it, just like the sport embraced $2500 canopies, and the fact that you don't EVER have to break a femur to be called a real swooper, jump a round to be called a real skydiver, or shoot a freefall video with a VHS camera to be called a real videographer!!!

[stratostar 5]

Quote

So hopefully others will move in the same direction soon.

Don't hold your breath, the industry is and has been moving away from extra pay for stills for the last two to three years and moving to giving away for free or for 5 to 10 bucks extra.

Unless your M.M., T. Hathway, Lazlo, O'brian, Kent who all can demand their going rate on any dz in the country and get it.

You are replaceable and expendable and more a pain in the ass then a useable tool and one of the key trends today is the use of hand-cam as a requirement at many dz's and that is a growing requirement at more and more dz's in order to work there as a TM.

You have those who work for peanuts and greedy DZO's to thank for the current trend in the sport to do away with and under pay outside slot camera flyers. If you work @ a DZ where the industry rate is still paid count your blessings, but count on seeing changes in the near future.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[davelepka 4]

Quote

But, if one can earn double the rate that he/she gets for doing video by selling stills, it may be worth making the time for the "sale", by, say,

letting another videographer take the next customer

That's crazy. Even if you can double your pay by selling the stills, why the hell would you give up a jump where you will be paid, to sit on the ground and sell stills where you might get paid. Why not not forget about the stills, and make another jump with guaranteed pay.

I'm not sure about you, but I go to the DZ to jump. In fact, I'd rather spend money to make another jump than skip a load and try to sell anything to anyone.

[billvon 2,989]

> why the hell would you give up a jump where you will be paid, to sit on the
>ground and sell stills where you might get paid.

Depends on your goals. For example, I like teaching. There are days I will give up 4-5 AFF jumps to teach the FJC. Money is about the same, and I like both enough to give up one for the other. Many people are like this.

(Cravin said)

>. . . have already embraced the "added value of stills" at $50-$70 on top
> of the video. So hopefully others will move in the same direction soon.

Why would they? I suspect the price of stills will be set by supply and demand, as almost anything else is. The photographer/school/DZ with the cheapest rates will get more of the students, and thus will attract more photographers (since they will have more work for them.) If they pay so little that the jumper cannot afford to maintain his gear, then no one will work for that school once they need new cameras. It's all self correcting in the long run; there is no fixed price that anyone "deserves" for a given task.

I've worked my ass off all day for free. I've spend pretty easy days doing POV camera work and made $900. Neither is right or wrong; it's just what people were willing to pay (and what I was willing to work for.)

[craivn 0]

Quote

>

(Cravin said)

>. . . have already embraced the "added value of stills" at $50-$70 on top
> of the video. So hopefully others will move in the same direction soon.

Why would they? I suspect the price of stills will be set by supply and demand, as almost anything else is. The photographer/school/DZ with the cheapest rates will get more of the students, and thus will attract more photographers (since they will have more work for them.)

I agree that it's all about supply and demand. In my experience though, the demand curve in the skydiving market is relatively inelastic. So, if you increase or decrease the price (within a certain range limit, of course), whether it's for tandem jumps, video or stills, you won't see much change in demand (unless, of course, you drastically drop the price of video; then everyone will want one). So why making it a commodity, if you can make it a premium service, and thus, maintain the volume and achieve extra revenue?

[craivn 0]

Quote

..., the industry is and has been moving away from extra pay for stills for the last two to three years and moving to giving away for free or for 5 to 10 bucks extra.

... one of the key trends today is the use of hand-cam as a requirement at many dz's and that is a growing requirement at more and more dz's in order to work there as a TM.

If you look at some of the replies here, a number of DZs do charge a fair amount extra for stills. So, I don't think the industry decided which way to go just yet. So, if more folks will ask $50-60 for stills, this will become the defacto standard, and the industry will have no choice, but to go that way. Traditional thinking of "lower price will get you more business" has never been a wise decision. For example, Cypres was $800 in 2000, now it's $1300., PD reserve was $700 then, and now it's $1300. Tandem prices and even jump tickets have been on the rise. Thus, it looks like, the industry is moving "up", not down! So, why not move with it so that you can afford your next rent increase (unless you really don't care about money).

As far as handy-cams go, you cannot generate stills from those, so that's outside the scope of this discussion.

[PhreeZone 20]

Cypres prices were that low due to the strong US dollar in the late 90', now the US dollar is a lot weaker and it costs a lot more to buy a Cypres because of the devaluation of the US Dollar and the fact that all Cypres are sold by the Euro originally.

There are a few sides to the arguement about chargining a premium price for stills. I've worked for a few places that operate things differently so I have my thoughts after seeing it in action and a few other thoughts from watching some operations as I get out and travel. Most of this assumes that the DZ does all the sales and there are no outside consessions that are in charge of the video sales. In those cases its really wide open as to what happens. (All figures assume the video flyer makes $30 for just a video)

Post selling stills as an add on to their video seems to work to a point but it also has a lot of that "used car" salesman tactic behind it. You have them on a high from just making a skydive and you can about sell them anything. Lots of DZ's take advantage of this and offer things like "Buy a second jump at a discount today" type sales. There is nothing wrong with this but you have to watch that you don't cross the line and become annoying and pushy and have that be the last memory they have as they leave your dropzone. I've seen some video people get outright offended when a customer does not buy the stills that they are trying to sell at $30-40 for a roll of film or a CD of 35-50 stills. Total income for the video flyer on this could be $60-80.

Preselling as a seperate item works only if you can convince them of the value of it upfront and have some way to make sure they are hooked enough on stills that you get them to pay prior to ever seeing your work. This way I've seen less stills getting sold unless the manifest and video people are on the same page and really push the stills in addition to a video. The issue with this is that a lot of people have enough issues paying $200 for a skydive and another $100 for the video. Pushing another $40-50 upgrade on them can be enough to get them to only do the skydive since it is just so hard to justify $350 for a skydive. For most people that is an entire car payment or half a rent check. You are really targeting the small crowd that has the money to spend on it and you are just trying to convince them of the value of everything. The DZ takes their money out of that additional and leaves the video flyer with a total income of $50-60

Preselling as a complete package works great for the customer since they only have to say I want video and they get stills also for "free" in their mind. I've seen much higher sell through rates with this type of a package since the customer will usually decide they want to get something to capture their skydive and then when they find out it is still and video then its an easy sell. The downside is usually the dropzone will price it slightly higher then just video but less then they would have priced it as a seperate item. This means that there is less profit being made to the DZ. At this point there are two options that can happen 1) The DZ only give the video flyer another $5 or $10 for the stills and still keeps their full % out of the sale or 2) the DZ makes less money on each sale and passes the additional $20-30 on to the video flyer. Income to the video flyer is $35-60 depending on how much the DZ takes.

Another option I've seen is that the DZ tries to post sell the video and stills to anyone that did not prepurchase it. This one is risky since the DZ is paying for the slot hoping to sell the video to recoup their costs in the end. This one actually works well since once the person sees their video they usually want to show it to others and buy at least part of the package if not the whole thing. Income on this is the same as the Presales at $50-60 provide they buy otherwise the DZ is out the slot and you have put the wear on your gear.

At the end of the day you also need to look at the bottom line and see if you are going to make more money by doing 4 jumps that are prepaid packages or if you do 4 video jumps and can't post sell the stills at all. You also need to look and see if you now need a packer to pack since you are off selling your photos instead of getting ready for the next jump. Also if you are off working the post sales are you going to be missing out on any video loads?

Also don't forget that you are getting to make a skydive on some one elses dollar

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Fast 0]

Quote

Quote

>

(Cravin said)

>. . . have already embraced the "added value of stills" at $50-$70 on top
> of the video. So hopefully others will move in the same direction soon.

Why would they? I suspect the price of stills will be set by supply and demand, as almost anything else is. The photographer/school/DZ with the cheapest rates will get more of the students, and thus will attract more photographers (since they will have more work for them.)

I agree that it's all about supply and demand. In my experience though, the demand curve in the skydiving market is relatively inelastic. So, if you increase or decrease the price (within a certain range limit, of course), whether it's for tandem jumps, video or stills, you won't see much change in demand (unless, of course, you drastically drop the price of video; then everyone will want one). So why making it a commodity, if you can make it a premium service, and thus, maintain the volume and achieve extra revenue?

That just isn't true in todays market. If you change the price of a skydive a little bit the customer may flee to your closest competition. Consumers are price minded in todays economy. If the prices you offer aren't competitive, you wont be making skydives.

Things work quite a bit different if you are the only operation in town, but there are so few places where that is true that it is hard to take a stance like that. There are 4 turbine DZs within 1.5 hours of where I live, the wuffo customer has quite a few options as to where they go jump.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka