Newbies - start with tandems or something else?

[darrenspooner 0]

I'm just wondering why experienced camera flyers are so vehemently opposed to newbies flying tandems, but don't mind them filming FS. Surely they're either safe in the air or they're not. Surely a 2 or 4-way is just as easy to hit as a tandem. Surely if you suck you suck, regadless of whether its a tandem or a 4-way. Surely, the familes of 4-ways are no less aggrieved if you kill their son than if you kill a tandem student.

Reason I ask is that my instructors are happy for me to train up filming tandems. They have trained me, monitored me, jumped with me, evaluated me, and licensed me. Surely they know my abilties, and my level of risk, better than people on here?

People on here suggest I (and anyone else in my shoes) am a liability filming tandems with 250 jumps. People that jump with me don't. How so?

[velocityphoto 0]

Maybe because the drop zone your jumping at is only seeing dollar signs? Think about it now. If you asked me to film me while doing tandem ,my response would be no way. You have 230 jumps spread out over 5 years and that isn't enough to even think of doing video IMO let alone getting close to me while doing a tandem.

A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

[tonyhays 86]

+1

With less than fifty jumps a year since you started (Darren), you are barely current in my book.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[freefalle 0]

We dont mind you shooting 4 way video, because We are not doing 4 way....

If the skydivers on the 4way jump make the decision to allow you to video their skydive, they assume the risk if you make a fatal error and injure on kill one of them. They know the risk and can make an informed decision.

My tandem passenger, doesn't know any better, and they entrust me with the responsibility to keep them safe. Part of that responsibilty is to not allow people who I dont believe are safe to be on their tandem jump.

[DSE 5]

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We dont mind you shooting 4 way video, because We are not doing 4 way....

If the skydivers on the 4way jump make the decision to allow you to video their skydive, they assume the risk if you make a fatal error and injure on kill one of them. They know the risk and can make an informed decision.

My tandem passenger, doesn't know any better, and they entrust me with the responsibility to keep them safe. Part of that responsibilty is to not allow people who I dont believe are safe to be on their tandem jump.

+1

[ozzy13 0]

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I'm just wondering why experienced camera flyers are so vehemently opposed to newbies flying tandems, but don't mind them filming FS. Surely they're either safe in the air or they're not. Surely a 2 or 4-way is just as easy to hit as a tandem. Surely if you suck you suck, regadless of whether its a tandem or a 4-way. Surely, the familes of 4-ways are no less aggrieved if you kill their son than if you kill a tandem student.

Reason I ask is that my instructors are happy for me to train up filming tandems. They have trained me, monitored me, jumped with me, evaluated me, and licensed me. Surely they know my abilties, and my level of risk, better than people on here?

People on here suggest I (and anyone else in my shoes) am a liability filming tandems with 250 jumps. People that jump with me don't. How so?

I'm not sure about this 100% I don't have the rating (as a TI) I was told it was a manufacture requirement that a videographer has to have 500 jump minimum to jump with a Tandem. Their rating could get pulled if something were to happen. Again not a 100% sure. Someone please correct me if im wrong besides what was say above is also a factor in the equation.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[freefalle 0]

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I'm just wondering why experienced camera flyers are so vehemently opposed to newbies flying tandems, but don't mind them filming FS. Surely they're either safe in the air or they're not. Surely a 2 or 4-way is just as easy to hit as a tandem. Surely if you suck you suck, regadless of whether its a tandem or a 4-way. Surely, the familes of 4-ways are no less aggrieved if you kill their son than if you kill a tandem student.

Reason I ask is that my instructors are happy for me to train up filming tandems. They have trained me, monitored me, jumped with me, evaluated me, and licensed me. Surely they know my abilties, and my level of risk, better than people on here?

People on here suggest I (and anyone else in my shoes) am a liability filming tandems with 250 jumps. People that jump with me don't. How so?

I'm not sure about this 100% I don't have the rating (as a TI) I was told it was a manufacture requirement that a videographer has to have 500 jump minimum to jump with a Tandem. Their rating could get pulled if something were to happen. Again not a 100% sure. Someone please correct me if im wrong besides what was say above is also a factor in the equation.

that is the case, however, the reality is many people start to shoot video as a way to earn income and build jump numbers. Many dropzones allow people with less than the magical number of 500 jumps shoot tandem video. However, just because it happens, doesn't make it a good practice.


"if something were to happen"

If something were to happen tandem masters could loose alot more than their ratings.

[billvon 3,000]

>Surely, the familes of 4-ways are no less aggrieved if you kill their
>son than if you kill a tandem student.

No. But we all understand the risks we take when we agree to jump with a newer camera flyer. Tandems do not.

Experienced jumpers have been trained to safely break off and deploy their parachutes; they can do this even if an idiot cameraman ends up close to them on breakoff. Tandems cannot.

Cameramen jumping with 4-way teams generally take the center and are not near other jumpers at opening time. Tandem videographers remain close.

Tandems are not just another skydive. They are more difficult and more complex than a regular skydive, and since one of the jumpers is almost completely untrained, the number of ways they can screw up is much, much greater. In addition, they don't behave like regular jumpers. They slide and change fall rate, they drop at deployment time, and they often turn or drive/backslide unexpectedly.

I don't do tandems any more. But back when I did, I would be very hesitant to let someone with 250 jumps jump with me _without_ a camera. Taking the same person, putting a camera on his head, giving him a complex job to do and actually asking him to get close does not make things any safer. Indeed, it greatly increases the risk.

If you want to learn video, then learn video on 2-ways, then 4-ways. It's good practice, and funnelling a 2-way launch is far less dangerous than slamming into a tandem just as he's throwing the drogue.

If you _really_ want to become good at doing tandem video, get a tandem rating. You will then know far more about tandem and end up being a much safer tandem cameraman overall. And one day you might just have to talk to someone with 230 jumps who wants to take video of the friend you are jumping with. At that point you will likely better understand the fuss everyone is making.

[dragon2 2]

At my DZ you are not allowed to start video on tandems. We refused a jumper saying he had to practice first on bellyflyers. He didn´t want to pay his own way, went to another DZ where he instantly gets to shoot PAYING video. Guess where friends and family of mine are NOT going for a tandemjump

It´s unsafe and you are not providing the tandem with a quality video either.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[skydiverton2 0]

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I'm just wondering why experienced camera flyers are so vehemently opposed to newbies flying tandems, but don't mind them filming FS. Surely they're either safe in the air or they're not. Surely a 2 or 4-way is just as easy to hit as a tandem. Surely if you suck you suck, regadless of whether its a tandem or a 4-way. Surely, the familes of 4-ways are no less aggrieved if you kill their son than if you kill a tandem student.

Reason I ask is that my instructors are happy for me to train up filming tandems. They have trained me, monitored me, jumped with me, evaluated me, and licensed me. Surely they know my abilties, and my level of risk, better than people on here?

People on here suggest I (and anyone else in my shoes) am a liability filming tandems with 250 jumps. People that jump with me don't. How so?

You are clearly not a TM!

Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid.
.
.
Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!

[Rover 11]

I still find it ironic that in some countries 500 jumps is enough to get a tandem rating, as well as the minimum number required to jump camera. I think that jumping camera is far less complex in nature than tandems, and a great way for someone to observe the potential complexities of tandems. Who makes these rules.....

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[dragon2 2]

Well we have 200 jumps for camera and 1000 for tandem, better?

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[DSE 5]

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At my DZ you are not allowed to start video on tandems. We refused a jumper saying he had to practice first on bellyflyers. He didn´t want to pay his own way, went to another DZ where he instantly gets to shoot PAYING video. Guess where friends and family of mine are NOT going for a tandemjump

It´s unsafe and you are not providing the tandem with a quality video either.

curious, how did you start? How many self-paid tandem vids did you do before you felt you were ready to become a paid videographer?
This subject seems to come up a lot.
One thing I notice is that many of those that say "You gotta have 500 jumps before jumping camera with a tandem (except I didn't, I got to start early....so don't do as I do, just do as I say). In a way, I'm one of the above. I also paid for over 100 of my own tandem jumps before I felt really comfortable being paid for my tandem jumps.

[dragon2 2]

First I did about 80 CRW camera jumps, then I got wings and filmed some FS, then wingsuit, added a stills camera about here, then I filmed a LOT of FS. Some of all those jumps I paid myself, most I got the slot covered. Then i was allowed to do freebee tandem videos for relatives of jumpers, Flying Blind, children´s cancer, did 20 or so of those. Then I got called in when needed for paying videos and now I´m in the rotation. I only paid for 3 tandem video jumps ever I think and that was later, when trying new stuff. All those freebee tandemvideos were good enough to sell from the get-go although of course I learned a lot more now and keep learning.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[azureriders 0]

First off, let me say that I think the 500 jump minimum is a good number, and should also be followed up with a minimum of 100 or so video jumps before videoing a tandem.

Now, so that you do not think that I can not see things from your eyes, I am one of those guys that was not only flying with tandems way before 500 jumps, I was getting paid to do so.

So, from a guy that has been in your shoes, let me say this:
If you think filming four way is as dangerous as filming tandems?
If you think filming four way safely requires as much skill as filming tandems safely?
If you think filming four way properly (training/archive) requires as much experience as filming tandems properly (artistic/archive)?
If you think filming four way brings as many liability issues to the table as filming tandems?
If...If...If....
You have a lot to learn. A whole lot in my opinion

Trying to explain all the differences to someone who does not want to hear them, is IMO a futile effort over the web. However, if you are interested drop me a line, I would be more than glad to share some battle stories, and maybe some helpful hints.

One should walk before running, and trust me, four way is walking compared to tandems.

Be careful and be safe.

[skydiverton2 0]

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I still find it ironic that in some countries 500 jumps is enough to get a tandem rating, as well as the minimum number required to jump camera. I think that jumping camera is far less complex in nature than tandems, and a great way for someone to observe the potential complexities of tandems. Who makes these rules.....

My (german) DZ requires 300jumps +100videojumps before you are allowed to start learning tandemvideo.
We also do handcam, only TM's with 500+ tandems are allowed to do this

Tandemvideo might look not complex but a mistake you make might injure a TM or pax.
Yes, I've seen some troube from the TM point of view, collisions on exit, flying in my burble or below me, and the best action a screen filling image of a deploying tandemcanopy (using a wideangle lens), to be honest only 3 cellls were required to fill the screen. Only a couple of inches away from a serious collision.

Just because it is on youtube does not mean the quality is acceptable!

So yes I concur with dragon2/saskia and azureriders

Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid.
.
.
Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!

[mccordia 74]

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Then I got called in when needed for paying videos

When I just started flying camera, many DZs asked about my availability for tandemvideo as I walked by with a camera. Regardless of jump numbers or experienced. If you deliver a product they can sell to costumers, they will quite often take who-ever is available if it works.

Some of the people jumping video might have strong principles..but the DZs quite often only have those if there are enough video flyers available, or shortly after someone gets a foot or camera entangled in a drogue...

I think you probably know the incidents Im talking about?

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[DSE 5]

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after someone gets a foot or camera entangled in a drogue...

WTF?? This actually happened somewhere? A camera flyer entangled their camera with a DROGUE!?

[BMFin 0]

Finnish requirements:

Enough skills to fly safely with the tandem.

We dont care if you have 10thousand jumps, if you cannot fly then you cannot fly

If you only have 200 and you have what it takes. Welcome aboard..

We dont look at numbers neither the color of your skin. Just the skill level

[bigsteve 0]

Just to add 2 cents...."Tandems are not just another skydive" TI's don't have the mobility of any other discipline. So the camera flyer has to have skills.

I have told jumpers with more than 2000 skydives they can not lurk my tandem student. But if they have skills and I know they will do exactly what I want them to do and I have jumped with that person, I have let people with less than the recommended 500 go with me and/or video

[oldgit 0]

Not often I post but after reading this post and the one where you dont know how you get bruised I feel compelled to stick my 2 bits in

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Reason I ask is that my instructors are happy for me to train up filming tandems

No their not their doing what I use to do to camera flyers I didnt trust let you exit until your out of the way then they exit as you say in your other post

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They have trained me, monitored me, jumped with me, evaluated me, and licensed me. Surely they know my abilties, and my level of risk, better than people on here?

Fine so why are you giving people here a hard time

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I'm either competent enough or I'm not. A tandem instructor has no less ability to get out of my way if I'm a liability than a 4-way team.

That statement alone shows you have no concept of tandem saftey

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A tandem student is a person same as everyone else

No a tandem student is the responsibility of the tandem master where as the 4 way are responsible for them selfs

[velvetjo 0]

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I'm just wondering why experienced camera flyers are so vehemently opposed to newbies flying tandems, but don't mind them filming FS. Surely they're either safe in the air or they're not. Surely a 2 or 4-way is just as easy to hit as a tandem. Surely if you suck you suck, regadless of whether its a tandem or a 4-way. Surely, the familes of 4-ways are no less aggrieved if you kill their son than if you kill a tandem student.

Here's something for you to try, since you don't seem to be convinced of the differences between a tandem and a typical RW jump: actually jump a tandem rig by yourself (no passenger). My old DZ had every new videographer do this to demonstrate the complexity of a tandem rig and the tandem's restrictions on moving laterally. After you've done this, consider the variables that a passenger adds, including everything from de-arched exits to freefall puking. Then ask yourself who you want to be near you with a camera during a jump like that.

If you're human like the rest of us, you'll screw up at some point while shooting video. Better to find out what "too close to a burble" means on a 3-way than landing on a tandem's back and tangling up in the drogue, no? There are lots of ways to learn video without putting customers at risk - a great one is filming inexperienced RW groups. You'll have lots of fall rate challenges, slides, spins and framing issues that will make you a much better photographer/flyer than exiting early to be hundreds of feet below a tandem.

Give the tandem rig thing a whirl and let us know what you think. Inquiring minds want to know.

Lance

[DSE 5]

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Better to find out what "too close to a burble" means on a 3-way than landing on a tandem's back and tangling up in the drogue, no?
Lance

not to mention that a four-way team doesn't have a trapdoor that can kill one or all three...

[PharmerPhil 0]

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There are lots of ways to learn video without putting customers at risk - a great one is filming inexperienced RW groups. You'll have lots of fall rate challenges, slides, spins and framing issues that will make you a much better photographer/flyer...

Great advice, particularly small RW groups. This is much more challenging than a really good 4-way team IMHO. Another video challenge if you can find it is an AFF Instructor rating course. Fall rate changes, hosed exits, back sliding, etc. Great for honing your video skills. Just make sure you check with the evaluator before every jump so you know what he will be doing.

[BMFin 0]

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not to mention that a four-way team doesn't have a trapdoor that can kill one or all three...

But not all tandem gear cause trapdoor either..