Canopy collision? anyone seen this one?

[Southern_Man 0]

Found this article on the video although it doesn't really help much:

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/crime_and_courts/blog/crime-and-courts-skydiver-s-video-of-paralyzing-fall-in/article_d248a30e-203a-11e1-87e3-0019bb2963f4.html

Summary: No report of an accident at the alleged time of the video. Not able to successfully contact the person involved in the accident.

I believe this may have been at Seven Hills skydivers, but not sure. The location fits.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[humanflite 0]

holy sh*t.
thats really nasty.... its easy to armchair critic such a scary video but as a few others have said, I WOULD have got up those lines to increase material or gone in trying.

Whats going on at 2:39 in the video? theres a green canopy above his head, that looks a hell of a lot better than what he ends up with... :(

Kudos for the injured jumper uploading this, quadraplegia is a terribly sad result for him.

[mhotch 0]

I saw the same thing at 2:39-2:43 there's an edit where he's got an okay canopy that is green on the end cells, then it cuts to him looking up at an entangled baby blue reserve with Razz's cutaway canopy. What happened in those 3-5 seconds that were cut could be critical, I think. He seemed to have a canopy, then all of a sudden, he's looking up at that. I also noticed at 2:34 you can make out a red RSL ribbon on the left Riser. Don't know if that matters - maybe he decided to cutway his main and the RSL deployed his reserve into the canopy he was holding.

[-ftp- 0]

it doesnt look like his green (end cells) canopy is good. It looks like he cut it away and it got caught up on him a little. his slider seems to be wrapped around the camera a little then he gets it off. I dont think its an edit, i think its his main leaving fast, which pulled his rsl and launched the reserve into the other jumpers main.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

For what it's worth...
I've had the pleasure of making many CRW jumps with RAZ including a 25 way Wisconsin Record a couple years ago. He has recruited and trained many CRW pups and is largely responsible for a resurgence in CRW training and safety over the past few years in the mid-west. If this was a CRW jump (which I doubt but don't know for sure) I can guarantee a thorough safety briefing including emergency procedures was given by RAZ!!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[dragraceit 0]

I was on this jump ! I try and avoid commenting on stuff like this ! but would like to clear up a few things !
1) yes we had a safety briefing, I remember the number one rule stay the f#@% away from the kite!
2) this was investigated by local police and the FAA, I'm almost 100% sure we filed a incident report!
they confiscated the injured jumpers video equipment and my video tape of the incident ! and reviewed, no one was found negligent !

3) it was a slow day at our drop zone, only a few people on site, no S&TAs on site.
4) the video you see has been edited , the wrapped jumper did have a good main canopy over his head, he performed his emergency procedures.
and deployed his reserve canopy into the wrap .
I don’t remember if he had an RSL .
5) the injured jumper had CRW training,

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

4) the video you see has been edited , the wrapped jumper did have a good main canopy over his head, he performed his emergency procedures.
and deployed his reserve canopy into the wrap .
I don’t remember if he had an RSL .
5) the injured jumper had CRW training,

Clarification needed. which one in your reference was the wrapped jumper (upper one?) and if he had a good main, why the cutaway?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[dragraceit 0]

yes the upper one, the one doing the video got wrapped !
and you are correct, why cut away a good canopy !

my guess is he panicked and went to his EPs

[blueskies120 0]

Hey pops,

I am the S@TA at seven hills and helped with the incident report. The wrapped person was Tim Brown the person flying right behind the kite. I am not sure why he cut away other then he just panicked and cut away a perfectly good parachute.

Tim had about 150 jumps at the time and was told to stay away from the kite.

Jay Kedley

[dragraceit 0]

are you the only S&TA AT seven hills ???

[blueskies120 0]

Sorry didn't mean to step on your toes i replied before reading. I will leave this one for you.

(edit) I was the S@TA at the time of the incident.

[wayneflorida 0]

Quote

Hey pops,

I am the S@TA at seven hills and helped with the incident report. The wrapped person was Tim Brown the person flying right behind the kite. I am not sure why he cut away other then he just panicked and cut away a perfectly good parachute.

Tim had about 150 jumps at the time and was told to stay away from the kite.

Jay Kedley

Question.

Was the jumper decending straight down or was he spinning out on the lines?

Did the jumper just crash into the ground or did he take the last few seconds of descent thinking about doing the best PLF he could or was possible?

[topdocker 0]

Quote

Quote

(P.107 of SIM 2012 seems to have the main instructions on what to do after a canopy collision. P. 132 & 133 cover CRW and provide a little more info. RSL's in section 5.3F, p112.)

Usually the SIM is pretty detailed and concise in instructions, but I can't find anything that says that it can be dangerous to cutaway if still entangled in a canopy. Yikes. (Anyone else find better instructions in there?)

The SIM seems a little muddled in its instructions about what to do in case of a collision. It's a messy topic, but still.

Cat B C-8-c
c. If in a canopy entanglement with another jumper
below 1,000 feet and it appears the canopies
cannot be separated in time for a safe landing,
deploy the reserve (will result in a cutaway with
the SOS system, so may not be an option).

5-3 F-c
c. RSLs can complicate certain emergency procedures:
(1) cutaway following a dual deployment
(2) cutting away from an entanglement after
a collision
(3) unstable cutaway, although statistics show

6-6 F
1. Entanglements are the greatest hazards when building
canopy formations.
2. Jumpers should know their altitude at all times,
because altitude will often dictate the course of action.
3. If a collision is imminent:
a. The jumpers should spread one arm and both legs
as wide as possible to reduce the possibility of
penetrating the suspension lines.
b. The other hand is used to protect the
reserve ripcord.
4. Jumpers should be specific in discussing
their intentions.
5. If altitude allows, emergency procedures should proceed
only after acknowledgment by other jumper(s).
6. In the event of multiple cutaways and if altitude
allows, jumpers should stagger reserve openings to
avoid possible canopy collisions.
7. Respond to the given situation.
a. When entanglements occur, jumpers must be
prepared to react quickly and creatively.
b. In many cases, the emergency is one that can’t be
prepared for in advance; it may even be a problem
no one imagined could happen.
8. If the entanglement occurs with sufficient altitude,
the jumpers should attempt to clear the entanglement
by following lines out before initiating emergency
procedures.
9. Jumpers should try to land together following a canopy
relative work emergency.

5-1 H-3-c
3. If a collision is inevitable:
a. Protect your face and operation handles.
b. Tuck in your arms, legs and head

Note the bolded discrepancy above

5-1 H-3-e
e. Communicate before taking action:
(1) The jumper above can strike the jumper
below during a cutaway unless one or both
are clear or ready to fend off.
(2) The jumper below can worsen the situation
for the jumper above by cutting away before
he or she is ready.
(3) If both jumpers are cutting away and altitude
permits, the second jumper should wait until
the first jumper clears the area below.
(4) The first jumper should fly from underneath
in a straight line after opening.
(5) At some point below a safe cutaway altitude
(1,000 feet), it may become necessary to
deploy one or both reserves (may not be a
safe option with an SOS system).
(6) If both jumpers are suspended under one flying
canopy at a low altitude, it may become
necessary to land with only that canopy.
(7) Communications may be difficult if one or
both jumpers are wearing full-face helmets.

We atteempted to update the SIM with regard to canopy collisions last year. We might have missed some areas where it is repeated.

Mostly the change in wording is to reflect the change in canopy lines and speeds. Sticking your arms and legs out in a collision with today's gear, you might not have a limb to work with, and it is easier to cover your handles with your arms in.

Tough video to watch at the end there....

top

Jump more, post less!

[mik 2]

Quote

Hey pops,

I am the S@TA at seven hills and helped with the incident report. The wrapped person was Tim Brown the person flying right behind the kite. I am not sure why he cut away other then he just panicked and cut away a perfectly good parachute.

Tim had about 150 jumps at the time and was told to stay away from the kite.

Jay Kedley

Without having looked at the video (slow internet connection at the moment) was there a conclusion about the injured jumper's jump numbers (150) and the presence of him wearing a camera having anything to do with the incident?

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

[Ron 10]

Quote

Without having looked at the video (slow internet connection at the moment) was there a conclusion about the injured jumper's jump numbers (150) and the presence of him wearing a camera having anything to do with the incident?

Good catch!

Yes, the desire to get "good video" could have easily made him fly closer than he should have and his focus on getting the "right shot" could have distracted him from seeing and avoiding soon enough.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Quote

Quote

Hey pops,

I am the S@TA at seven hills and helped with the incident report. The wrapped person was Tim Brown the person flying right behind the kite. I am not sure why he cut away other then he just panicked and cut away a perfectly good parachute.

Tim had about 150 jumps at the time and was told to stay away from the kite.

Jay Kedley

Without having looked at the video (slow internet connection at the moment) was there a conclusion about the injured jumper's jump numbers (150) and the presence of him wearing a camera having anything to do with the incident?

Dah!!
-----------
Thanks for the "First Hand" information. I knew there was more to this incident. It really looks like the camera flyer just got too close. Since no CRW was planned, up and behind was a really bad place to park the camera. Great example of why you need 200 jumps MINIMUM to bolt on a camera.

Also, this should serve as an example of why proximity flying is dangerous and should be well planned.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[Schoenauer 0]

I am under the impression that there are three types of canopy collision:

Wrap – When only the canopy or part of the canopy is wrapped around the jumper
Entanglement – When a jumper or part of the jumper has passed through one or more lines
Body to Body—Self explanatory



“The SIM seems a little muddled in its instructions about what to do in case of a collision.”

Quote

5-1 H-3
3. If a collision is inevitable:
a. Protect your face and operation handles.
b. Tuck in your arms, legs and head


6-6 F
1. Entanglements are the greatest hazards when building
canopy formations.
2. Jumpers should know their altitude at all times,
because altitude will often dictate the course of action.
3. If a collision is imminent:
a. The jumpers should spread one arm and both legs as wide as possible to reduce the possibility of
penetrating the suspension lines.

Note the bolded discrepancy above

My question about this discrepancy is why did the USPA make the change in 5-1 H-3.b to the 10-11 SIM from the previous 09-10 SIM?

From the 09-10 USPA SIM:

5-1 H-3.b

3. If a collision is inevitable:
a. Protect your face and operation handles.
b. Spread your legs to avoid going between lines.

What do they what Instructors to teach students?

Memento Mori

[topdocker 0]

Quote

I am under the impression that there are three types of canopy collision:

Wrap – When only the canopy or part of the canopy is wrapped around the jumper
Entanglement – When a jumper or part of the jumper has passed through one or more lines
Body to Body—Self explanatory

“The SIM seems a little muddled in its instructions about what to do in case of a collision.”

Quote

5-1 H-3
3. If a collision is inevitable:
a. Protect your face and operation handles.
b. Tuck in your arms, legs and head


6-6 F
1. Entanglements are the greatest hazards when building
canopy formations.
2. Jumpers should know their altitude at all times,
because altitude will often dictate the course of action.
3. If a collision is imminent:
a. The jumpers should spread one arm and both legs as wide as possible to reduce the possibility of
penetrating the suspension lines.

Note the bolded discrepancy above

My question about this discrepancy is why did the USPA make the change in 5-1 H-3.b to the 10-11 SIM from the previous 10-09 SIM?

From the 09-10 USPA SIM:
5-1 H-3.b
3. If a collision is inevitable:
a. Protect your face and operation handles.
b. Spread your legs to avoid going between lines.


What do they what Instructors to teach students?

USPA has been trying to modify what to do in the event of a canopy collision to reflect the higher speeds of canopies and smaller dimensions of lines by having jumpers pull in their arms and legs, tuck their heads, and cover your handles. If you hit HMA with an arm at 70 MPH, you may not have a functional arm afterward (if its still attached). The original "spread out" was from the days of rounds, and closing speeds were much less.

The idea is you have to survive the collision first, and be able to think and operate after. By essentially PLFing into the other canopy, you have the greatest chance of being able to respond and survive. Also, it is critical to keep your handles covered to prevent accidental deployment of your reserve.

Does that help?
top

Jump more, post less!

[sacex250 0]

Quote

Great example of why you need 200 jumps MINIMUM to bolt on a camera.

1) You don't NEED 200 jumps to jump a camera, it's RECOMMENDED per USPA, but...

2) ...the recommendation is not 200 jumps, it's a C-License.

3) Flying above and behind someone is not a good place to be whether or not you have a camera.

4) Avoiding a canopy collision, usually involves trying to [B]AVOID[/I] a canopy collision, which this jumper made no attempt to do.

Maybe someday, somebody will decide that it's actually in the best interests of the sport to create a camera "endorsement" for jumpers that want to use small format cameras. Until then, the sport will preach abstinence over education as if that's the answer to every situation.

It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

[lekstrom10k 0]

After checking a map It was at Seven Hills in Wisconsin still dont know what year.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

I am under the impression that there are three types of canopy collision:

Wrap – When only the canopy or part of the canopy is wrapped around the jumper
Entanglement – When a jumper or part of the jumper has passed through one or more lines
Body to Body—Self explanatory

Wrap - correct

Entanglement - it all about the canopy, not the jumper. One's canopy can be entangled with another without the jumper having gone through the lines.

Body-to-Body - since we were talking about canopy problems, I didn't bother to mention body-to-body collisions. If two bodies collide, and the canopies don't wrap or entangle, you are one lucky S.O.B....IF you're still conscious and functioning.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Ron 10]

Quote

1) You don't NEED 200 jumps to jump a camera, it's RECOMMENDED per USPA, but...

2) ...the recommendation is not 200 jumps, it's a C-License.

And you have to have min 200 to get a "C".

The point:

Quote

a. Prior to jumping, a skydiver should have enough general jump experience to be able to handle any skydiving emergency or minor problem easily and without stress.

b. A camera flyer should possess freefall flying skills well above average and applicable to the planned jump.

(1) belly-to-earth

(2) freeflying (upright and head-down)

(3) canopy formation

(4) multiple (for skysurfing, filming student training jumps, etc.)

It seems that most agree that flying above and behind while filming CRW was a bad choice.

I think it is very safe to think that the camera and the desire to get the shot contributed to this accident.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kd5xb 1]

I watched up until the reserve and other jumpers main were a ball of crap, then I stopped. I figure that's pretty close to the last thing a good friend of mine saw some years ago. I couldn't watch any more.

I can tell you this -- years ago I jumped with a Super 8 movie camera -- and I thought I was Superman. Thirty years later, I KNOW I'm fragile. Well, no more than anybody else, but a fall form anything over about 50 feet isn't something I'm sure I WANT to survive.

And after a 30-year break from skydiving, I don't think I'll even think about taking a camera for a long, long time.

Slow down, people -- too much "hurry" will get you problems in all kinds of things, not just skydiving.

I'm a jumper. Even though I don't always have money for jumps, and may not ever own a rig again, I'll always be a jumper.

[johnmatrix 21]

This guy was on TV in Australia this morning.

http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/video/-/watch/27553939/skydiver-s-survival/

It would have been good to get some better questions from the interviewer, she really is shithouse.