Serious drogue entanglement with a cutaway?

[mcGowan 0]

I am putting together some information for my camera crew and am stumped while considering a crazy situation. It has never happened to me or anyone that I know of, so I have not had first hand knowledge of a serious drogue entanglement. Has anyone ever had themselves entangled in a drogue and had the tandem master cut away while they were still entangled? What did you do and what exactly happened? I just want to formulate some ideas on the situation.

Happy Flying folks.

[mcGowan 0]

By the way, thoughts and ideas are welcomed here as well. This is an impossible situation, I'm thinking, but would really like to hash it out.

[linestretch 0]

I had this happen to me, but I was the TI. Fortunetly, the drogue removed a good portion of the camera flyers helmet so the entanglement ended there. But my gears were turning after that. As for what to do?....hindsight made me think (on the tandem end) was to make sure the RSL was disconnected...then cutaway and release the drogue. As for video? I'm curious to hear ideas as well. Obviously...the 'dont get hit by the droge' comment comes to mind.

my pics & stuff!

[keithbar 1]

i've had a few in my face over the years. but never touched one yet! ( knock knock )

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[mcGowan 0]

Quote

the drogue removed a good portion of the camera flyers helmet

Lucky guy.

[jurgencamps 0]

Quote

I am putting together some information for my camera crew and am stumped while considering a crazy situation. It has never happened to me or anyone that I know of, so I have not had first hand knowledge of a serious drogue entanglement. Has anyone ever had themselves entangled in a drogue and had the tandem master cut away while they were still entangled? What did you do and what exactly happened? I just want to formulate some ideas on the situation.

Happy Flying folks.

I was teached in this situation as a TI to disconnect the RSL, pull the cutawayhandle and to release the drogue. After clearing the mess, pull reserve.

[piisfish 140]

do you mean a videoman-drogue entanglement ?

I have heard about TI/passenger-drogue entanglement (including the british strangulation jump) .

In my thinking, the only way to entangle would be prior to drogue bridle tension, so in a very short period of time between the throw and the set.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[mcGowan 0]

I'm looking at it from the angle of the video guy, not the TI. Some of you have sent private messages and that's great, thank you. If you would not like to speak of the incidents publicly, I'm cool with that.

Cheers!

[stayhigh 2]

try to kick out of it before ti release the drogue handle????

if that does not happen you'll probably got wrap in tandem main canopy.
1. try to swim out of it while looking at your alti.
2. if you can not swim out fire reserve at harddeck???
3. and throw out your main???
4. Video guy is fucked.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[YISkyDive 0]

Quote

try to kick out of it before ti release the drogue handle????

if that does not happen you'll probably got wrap in tandem main canopy.
1. try to swim out of it while looking at your alti.
2. if you can not swim out fire reserve at harddeck???
3. and throw out your main???
4. Video guy is fucked.

I have over 2000 tandem camera jumps and never found myself entangled on a drogue however I witnessed a camera flyer becoming entangled.

Porter exit, sigma system and experienced camera flyer with many camera jumps.

Situation: It was a late leave with a somewhat early drogue throw. Separation was there but the video flyer was right on the drogue path and was hit in the face by the drogue at line stretch.

The drogue hooked the ringsite and stayed with the camera flyer for a number of seconds. The camera flyer's ring site eventually broke off. The camera flyer flew their body during the duration of the event and plastic screws broker off the ringsite (if I recall correctly) and the drogue cleared. It was over before it started.

Here is the thing - as a TI if my camera flyer is flying stable with the drogue and I am stable with the student I am inclined to give them some time to clear the drogue. Its far more dangerous for me to deploy a reserve below a wrapped camera guy then to give them some time. A drogue entanglement will most likely come from a camera helmet - dump your gear and clear.

If they are caught by another part then their helmet there are a lot of problems coming up fast.

I tried to disconnect my RSL in freefall the other weekend as a TI with a fullface Z1 on. It was fucking hard. Clearly, I didn't disconnect it but with gloves on and a Z1 full face it took over 3K feet to confirm I had the pulltab in hand.

This situation requires briefing for both instructors and video guys. A TI needs to understand when they are in imminent danger or have some time to allow their camera guy the chance to clear. Obviously, I don’t have any answers. Just some though while thinking through the situation myself the other week.

[vdschoor 0]

Hey Mike, this is a great topic and reading some of the feedback below this seems to be a really good one to discuss with newer, or even very experienced tandem videographers. I for one have not given this a lot of thought beyond: if I get tangled up with the drogue, I am potentially killing 3 people.

For me, if I "miss" the exit, then I am leaving late, really late. This means, once they break the door I just let them go past me and I do more of a peeling exit. I still get their face right before they leave, and the "tandem story" is not lost... they remain in frame, and I keep myself and the tandem pair safe by preventing a drogue entanglement.

I've gotten very close to eating a drogue once, on a skyvan exit where the TI did a backflip and threw the drogue as they came around. I made the mistake of putting myself in "the center" of the exit instead of staying a bit off to the side.

As you know, flying tandem videos is a very responsible job, and should not be taken lightly..

The porter story above scares the crap out of me, but I applaud the parties involved for staying calm in that situation.

Hope to see you around next week Mike, I'll be in Eloy for memorial day weekend.

[gilead1 0]

Quote

Some of you have sent private messages and that's great, thank you. If you would not like to speak of the incidents publicly, I'm cool with that.

Cheers!

Any chance you can share it with us without giving away the identifying details?
I'm sure we can all learn alot.

Gilead

[stayhigh 2]

just a newbie starting out here.
froat floating has less chance of getting hit by a drogue???
what do you guys think???

friend of mine got hit by a drogue one time and it made ring sight fly off, ever since then I try not to fly from the camera step.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[VideoFly 0]

Hi Mike,
The situation you described is scary. I have filmed a TI and student drogue entanglement and taken a couple of drogues in the face and one on the arm, but I regard the drogue bridle as somewhat like a high tension power line or angry cobra and have avoided it at all costs.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

For me, if I "miss" the exit, then I am leaving late, really late. This means, once they break the door I just let them go past me and I do more of a peeling exit

This is a lesson I try to teach to every new tandem video flyer. There are two acceptable exits, an 'on time' leading exit, or a trailing exit. A 'late' leading exit is asking to get a drouge in the face, so either you 'hit your mark' and get off ahead of them, or hang on and peel off after them.

It's one of the hardest things to do, hang on when you're 'sprung' on the step ready to react, but that's what seperates the men from the boys (even for the female camera flyers). This thread is the reason I like to point this out to the new guys. There's no good solution to a druoge/camera flyer entanglement, so you have to make not having one a 'prime directive' on every jump.

[RIGGER 0]

Never happened here.

When training TI's I train that case but real life could be different.

In our Safety Seminars all camera flyers & TI's are told to be aware of that.

I would say that both sides (TI & Camera flyer) should be alert to avoide such a case.

Cheers

[realpet 0]

Quote

I've gotten very close to eating a drogue once, on a skyvan exit where the TI did a backflip and threw the drogue as they came around. I made the mistake of putting myself in "the center" of the exit instead of staying a bit off to the side.

Did something similar a couple of years back, C-206U exit, tandem slipped out during the exit count and I left late but not late enough. Tried to get myself to the same flight level but didn't manage it. Attached is (a bad, interlaced) video grab from the situation.

Now also I know that if I miss the exit, I WILL wait and not try to get after the tandem as soon as possible. Got also a good proposal from another camera guy - when exiting, try to slide below the plane i.e. fly to side of the tandem flight line.

- Petri

[VideoFly 0]

Quote

There are two acceptable exits, an 'on time' leading exit, or a trailing exit. A 'late' leading exit is asking to get a drouge in the face, so either you 'hit your mark' and get off ahead of them, or hang on and peel off after them.

That is exactly correct. When I train new camera flyers, I stress that if you miss the exit, then follow the TI with your camera, allow them to set the drogue, and then leave and drop down in front of them while never having them leave the camera's view. It looks great on film and is not only safe, but fully acceptable to tandem students.

[mcGowan 0]

Quote

Here is the thing - as a TI if my camera flyer is flying stable with the drogue and I am stable with the student I am inclined to give them some time to clear the drogue. Its far more dangerous for me to deploy a reserve below a wrapped camera guy then to give them some time. A drogue entanglement will most likely come from a camera helmet - dump your gear and clear.

Thank you for that stayhigh. I have been in discussion with a few of the minds that write for the Army and Navy regarding parachute operations. We have all come to the conclusion that in a wrap situation it is best to try to clear as much as possible(swimming hand over hand is a good reference here too), then pull your MAIN pilot chute at your hard deck. The idea being that you cannot control where your reserve pilot chute fires, but you can take your main pilot chute and throw it at any blue you see and hope it clears and pulls you out or at least gives you a chance to have a good chute over your head, even if you are still wrapped.

Going to let this percolate a little more before revising our manual. may be some more ideas and experiences yet to add. I tell you after 47 years in the sport, I still find it incredibly exciting discussing and working out ideas.

Cheers!