The111 1 #1 July 23, 2003 I'm having a really difficult time deciding whether or not to get a Skyhook on my new rig. Here's the thing... there are at least a few fatalities where "old" RSL's caused a reserve to malfunction due to harsh spins. I have seen the test photos of the Skyhook though, where a spinning main is cutaway, and the reserve opens clean. My concern is that maybe an intentional spiral and one which is due to malfunction may be different. Does anyone know if "regular" RSL's have been put through similar tests? I.e. intentionally putting the main into a spin then cutting it away. Thanks.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #2 July 23, 2003 Quotethere are at least a few fatalities where "old" RSL's caused a reserve to malfunction due to harsh spins. If you look hard enough you'll always find cases where an otherwise reliable piece of equipment failed, or caused another component to fail or function improperly. For example, if you take the number of clean RSL deployments over the number of failed RSL deployments you'll see (I think) that the RSL is a fairly reliable device. I wouldn't base my decision to use or not use a piece of safety equipment on a few people's bad experiences. Do you jump with a Cypres? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #3 July 23, 2003 QuoteDoes anyone know if "regular" RSL's have been put through similar tests? I.e. intentionally putting the main into a spin then cutting it away. Yup, and moreMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 July 23, 2003 According to Bill Booth, since the reserve is presented to the wind faster then through normal deployment methods, it actually stops the spin and opens the reserve with out any line twists. Cutaways with a RSL in that regard, will leave you (more then likely) with line twists on the reserve (due to the time it takes the reserve to deploy from the freebag while you are still spinning from your now cutaway main). Something I thought was neat is that you can disconnect the Skyhook (or its operation, actually) by disconnecing the RSL hookup on the riser (if you search for the previous threads on the Skyhook and how it works, that'll make sense). Honestly, if I had the money, I would buy a RWS rig just so I could have a Skyhook. I think its one of the better ideas to come out to the general skydiving world in a long time, and I'm happy that the Sigma tandem systems that I jump are getting fitted with a Skyhook.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #5 July 23, 2003 QuoteFor example, if you take the number of clean RSL deployments over the number of failed RSL deployments you'll see (I think) that the RSL is a fairly reliable device. Unfortunately I dunno if all those stats are available. :( QuoteYup, and more Do you know how they turned out?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #6 July 23, 2003 QuoteHere's the thing... there are at least a few fatalities where "old" RSL's caused a reserve to malfunction due to harsh spins. I'd be interested to see the data to support this claim. I've seen an awful lot of spinning mals come out very clean after an RSL fire...I've even been involved in a few . The RSL has been through years of tests and, to my knowledge, no one has ever been able to show that there is a negative component to using an RSL...besides opinion, there just isn't data. If anyone has data to prove otherwise, please share it! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #7 July 23, 2003 more often than not, cutting away from a spinner is is no big deal. Your body isn't spinning when then canopy is released. The tendency is to just be flung away feet first, and reach line stretch soon after. Naturally not all releases are the same so just read that as a generality. There are always instances that linetwists occur. A big advocate of RSL's is Rick Horn. He loads his elliptical canopy pretty heavily. If any one knows his email can you PM it to me so I can ask him his view on the subject? It's rather interesting For the record I don't jump with one personally. I see no reason not to, I just like the choice to delay or not to delay. I've had plenty of cutaways planned and unplanned to base that decision on.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #8 July 23, 2003 Here is the rec.skydiving post Rick Horn made about the jump where an RSL saved his life.Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #9 July 23, 2003 QuoteQuoteFor example, if you take the number of clean RSL deployments over the number of failed RSL deployments you'll see (I think) that the RSL is a fairly reliable device. Unfortunately I dunno if all those stats are available. :( QuoteYup, and more Do you know how they turned out? If the RSL were unreliable as I think you might believe that it is there's a pretty good chance that the skydving community at large would have phased it out by now. Just my $0.02 USD. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #10 July 23, 2003 QuoteI've seen an awful lot of spinning mals come out very clean after an RSL fire... How exactly does an RSL "fire"? Ignore me, I'm just being an ass... QuoteIf anyone has data to prove otherwise, please share it! 9/30/2001 Opelika, AL DMAL 48 308 Y/Y Description: Due to a hard opening, this jumper broke one of the D lines on his canopy, a 230 Rascal. it went into a spin, so he cut it away. The rapid deployment of the reserve via the RSL resulted in his capturing the reserve pilot chute on his right arm. One report indicates the reserve lines also entangled with his neck. The reserve never cleared the freebag. He was found dead at the scene. A second report from someone involved with the investigation reports that the RSL had nothing to do with it; I await further details. Lessons:RSL's are a mixed blessing. For novice jumpers, they provide insurance against failure to pull the reserve after a cutaway, a relatively frequent occurrence in the pre-CYPRES past. This incident may illustrate the downside of an RSL. However, you are right. That was the ONLY one I could find. Believe it or not, I think my mind has been changed and I am probably going to change my order tomorrow to incorporate Skyhook...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blahr 0 #11 July 23, 2003 If you stil have the choice to include one in your new Vector and the additional $175.00 isnt an issue, then get it. You can always disconnect it :-) I was deciding if I wanted a Vector or a Javelin last week. I like them both for looks AND function. I decided on the new Vector 3 M over a Javelin specifically because of the Skyhook. I cant find a single good arguement to not have one and a lot of good arguments TO have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blahr 0 #12 July 23, 2003 Quote However, you are right. That was the ONLY one I could find. Believe it or not, I think my mind has been changed and I am probably going to change my order tomorrow to incorporate Skyhook... I honestly believe this is a good choice. Regarding the incident you posted in your last message, I'd bet a skyhook would have performed differently in that circumstance due to the additional speed of deployment and pull from the main canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #13 July 23, 2003 QuoteRegarding the incident you posted in your last message, I'd bet a skyhook would have performed differently in that circumstance due to the additional speed of deployment and pull from the main canopy. I was thinking the same thing... But I think one of the main factors in my decision is just knowing that Bill Booth has been making gear for decades and has BILLIONS more experience (if experience was measurable in numbers!) than I'll ever have, so I think the wisest thing is just to trust him and his experience, over my 50-jump ass trying to figure out all the variables.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blahr 0 #14 July 23, 2003 Quote But I think one of the main factors in my decision is just knowing that Bill Booth has been making gear for decades and has BILLIONS more experience. You forgot to mention that he has a SERIOUS beard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #15 July 24, 2003 QuoteYou forgot to mention that he has a SERIOUS beard Which always accompanies wisdom. At least in Lord of the Rings... www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BBKid 0 #16 July 24, 2003 Sidenote: are there any plans for other manufacturers to get Skyhook licenses? I can't believe that Bill Booth would turn down reasonable offers just so he could get extra sales on RWS rigs. After all, he's provided incredibly safe innovations to the industry for decades, so why would he stop at this? Nick --------------------------- "I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #17 July 24, 2003 QuoteSidenote: are there any plans for other manufacturers to get Skyhook licenses? I can't believe that Bill Booth would turn down reasonable offers just so he could get extra sales on RWS rigs. After all, he's provided incredibly safe innovations to the industry for decades, so why would he stop at this? I think he's said in other threads that he plans on it, but it will take some time and he's not sure how much.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #18 July 24, 2003 Let's see, a few bucks per Skyhook sold through other Mfgs., or several complete rigs that they wouldn't have sold otherwise...hmmm, that's a tough one...Especially when they'll get those other $$ after they release it to other companies. I'm sure RWS will be more than happy to market the Skyhook out, once they've sold a bunch of their rigs with it as a "standard" option. Why on earth would they let other rig Mfgs. use it to sell rigs until they've gotten their chunk out the market? Come on guys, this is business! We may like to think that everyone is friends out there and we're all looking out for each other, but manufacturers are in this game to make a living, not to be your friend. DO NOT confuse friendly with friendship. RWS is marketing the Skyhook to sell their product, not someone elses. Once that market's slowed down, you might see it sold to other Mfgs. There's nothing wrong with it, it's good business! If you don't like it, design a better mousetrap and "market" it to the other Mfgs. I'm not trying to grind on anyone here, but I'm sick of people thinking that manufacturers owe them something. Sorry if I vented a bit there, but it's the truth...it's business. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kerr 0 #19 July 24, 2003 I'm no patent lawyer, so what would I know, but isn't there some sort of compulsory licensing regulations that can force a patent holder to give fair and reasonable licenses to their patents? Anti-trust regs? I'd guess that the other manufacturers just aren't that interested in the idea. At least not interested enough to pursue it. Kerr -- Kerr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #20 July 24, 2003 I hear ya. And I'll say that Bill and RWS deserve the extra revenue resulting from the Skyhook. Congrats on a tremendously innovative device. I don't jump with an RSL but when I move to a smaller canopy that I know I won't use for CRW then the container will be from RWS with the Skyhook. Regards,"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #21 July 24, 2003 QuoteI'm no patent lawyer, so what would I know, but isn't there some sort of compulsory licensing regulations that can force a patent holder to give fair and reasonable licenses to their patents? Anti-trust regs? I have no idea, but there are some screwy laws out there so who knows? I'm not sure why you would be forced to let others use your ideas if you didn't want to...especially if you're offering a replacement product (ie - another certified rig) to take the place of what someone else has currently. That is, if no one was making a skydiving rig with the Skyhook, but the device was being used on some other product in the world, and the Mfg. didn't want to built skydiving rigs, then I could see a reason for licensing to be an issue. But this isn't the case. Good on Bill and RWS for making the sport safer. If you want that option, for now, buy a Vector...until someone comes out with another way to do it, or the Skyhook is licensed. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BBKid 0 #22 July 24, 2003 Oh, don't get me wrong guys, of course Bill should get the benefit of his invention. It was just idle curiosity, since I know some guys who - believe it or not - would happily sacrifice a definite safety advantage because they specifically don't want a Vector. Makes no sense to me, but if they weren't going to buy a Vector anyway... Nick --------------------------- "I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #23 July 24, 2003 QuoteIt was just idle curiosity, since I know some guys who - believe it or not - would happily sacrifice a definite safety advantage because they specifically don't want a Vector. I've said it before, but I think that if the Skyhook has a positive influence on reducing fatalities, it is simply going to be because there are more people jumping with an RSL than before. Think about this: how many fatalities are you aware of where the jumper had an RSL, connected, and just cutaway too low? If you have a Cypres, and cutaway above ~800 feet, it would probably deploy your reserve if you dont' have an RSL and don't pull for yourself. The advantage of the Skyhook is that there have been more documented test jumps with spinning canopies than with standard RSL's, and it has been accepted by the skydiving public that it is now safe to have an RSL, as long as it is a Skyhook. Whereas in the past, it was simply accepted that having a RSL deploy your reserve from a spinning main would result in line twists on the reserve, or worse yet, a malfunction. To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been a test "program" to test this theory. Personally, I would take line twists on a reserve any day over trying to regain stability for the rest of my life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #24 July 25, 2003 If the skyhook performs as well as predicted over the next few years, I'm guessing it'll end up being just as available as standard RSLs are now. But I definitely don't blame RWS for keeping it only on their rigs for the time being. My next rig will be a vector 3, partially because of the skyhook, partially because I like what I've seen from Bill Booth right here, and a little because it's a popular rig where I'm jumping now so hopefully finding a good rigger to pack it wont be difficult (unlike my reflex). Speaking of my reflex, anyone wanna buy it? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #25 July 25, 2003 QuoteMy concern is that maybe an intentional spiral and one which is due to malfunction may be different. Sure, they are different. In an intentional spiral you are flying face to earth, while with spinning linetwists you will often find yourself "on your back." The rigger here had an intentional cutaway rig equipped with a Skyhook, so he could check it out. He had an actual, unstaged malfunction: spinning linetwists (on his back). He cutaway and had a clean reserve deployment with only a half line twist. In his other 5 jumps on that rig, he did all sorts of spiraling deployments, all with clean openings, but none were as fast as the one with spinning linetwists. Hope that helps you decide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
