JohnMitchell 16 #26 November 13, 2011 I see your point, Rob. For experienced jumpers (50+ jumps) I think they could and should flare normally. Some rigs barely have 200 sq. ft. out with both canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pablo.Moreno 0 #27 November 15, 2011 I didn't read of anyone mentioning harness turns on a biplane. You would be steering both canopys at the same time. It might be a bad idea, if the wingloading are to far from each other. but I didn't read on the report anything about doing harness turns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #28 November 15, 2011 Interesting idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krip 2 #29 November 15, 2011 Quote " Quote ... d. Use minimal control input as necessary for landing. ........................ I disagree with "minimal input" for landing. I say do a normal, symmetrical flare. Why wouldn't you? ... " ..................................................................... Because with 500 to 600 square feet of nylon (typical student canopies) overhead, you are descending so slowly that flaring does not make a difference. The risk is that a student will flare too high and mess with something that is working. IOW If it is descending slowly enough to walk away from the landing ... why mes with success? Hi RR Knew a guy that had a biplane. Second hand info he decided to cutawy the main a couple of 100' off the ground rather than land it.As the main was leaveing it became tangled with his reserve. Killed himHappened at Bremerton airport Wa state. A while back. I think it was posted on Dizzy.com but can't find it.K-RIP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #30 November 15, 2011 Couch Freaks a few years ago, a high speed, low pass was done. A few brave souls attempted a 4 way and several AAD's fired. To make a long story short, one jumper successfully landed a side by side. We watched as a couple two out situations turn into down planes. It was not pretty. Since then, I've played this scenario in my mind over and over. Being and old CRW Pup, how about this... If altitude permits, and, if you have CRW experience, turn the two out situation into a down plane and then chop the Main. If you've ever let go of someone in a CRW down plane, you’d see those canopies quickly fly away from each other. I'm not suggesting anyone do this, I'm just putting it out there for discussion.Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #31 November 15, 2011 Unless your AAD missfired or you had a acidental reserve pull, you are very low and doing "stunts" like that is a bit crazy. But yes it would work, there are videos of it on youtube too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #32 November 15, 2011 Quote Since then, I've played this scenario in my mind over and over. Being and old CRW Pup, how about this... If altitude permits, and, if you have CRW experience, turn the two out situation into a down plane and then chop the Main. If you've ever let go of someone in a CRW down plane, you’d see those canopies quickly fly away from each other. I'm not suggesting anyone do this, I'm just putting it out there for discussion. That's quite a few IFs you have there What would you consider CRew 'experience'? Bumping endcells a few times after the RW-part of the jump is over? Five dedicated jumps? Fifty? And while downlaning canopies will shoot apart pretty quick, it *might* also happen that the canopies start returning to biplane/sbs-configuration once you stop giving input on your canopy in order to free a hand to reach for the cutaway (just theorising). The big difference is, unlike a CReW downplane, in a two-out situation both canopies are attached to you. So I'd echo other people in saying: Do not tamper with a stable configuration. If you screw up by giving to aggressive inputs and end up with a downplane at 100 feet - cutaway immediately."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #33 November 15, 2011 with some riser input, you can usually get the bi-plane to a side-by-side and then chop the main. That would be my preference. unless of course you happen to pull at 800' and then wonder why you do not have time to think of all those options..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,050 #34 November 15, 2011 >with some riser input, you can usually get the bi-plane to a side-by-side >and then chop the main. Yep. You could also turn a barely stable side by side into a nasty spinning mess when your PD143R (in brakes) can't keep up with your Crossfire109 (without brakes.) In general if you have a two-out and it will land you safely (i.e. you have at least minimal control over it and you're not descending too fast) it's nuts, IMO, to mess with it. Why go from a configuration that will save your life to one that might not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #35 November 15, 2011 Seen video of exactly that, but it also brings to mind a post I saw here a year or so ago of a guy that was doing an intentional 2 out (for the experience or whatever reason) - I forget exactly what happened - think maybe they downplaned and a riser went around his neck? - at any rate it almost killed him. If I had a stable biplane I wouldnt mess with it personally. A side by side that was squirrley I would consider trying to get them to downplane and get rid of the main... As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #36 November 15, 2011 I would argue that any two canopies out that are under 150sq ft, or for that matter under 200 sq ft are probably not landable, and could at any moment turn into the 'nasty spinning mess' that you suggest.... unless in a perfect biplane, and even then only by shit-ass luck or expert canopy handling (which might require prior practice of said maneuver - also not recommended.) If you are unable to steer it sufficiently, then you end up on a roof, in the power lines or in the trees as the video recently suggested, there were not a lot of options. The "Best" scenario is landing the reserve parachute by itself. to do that, you need to get rid of the main. a side by side can be chopped. For that matter a biplane can be chopped - I have done it. Not recommended exactly, but we are talking about the lesser of evils, and there is no one answer for every scenario. I never liked the idea of landing two parachutes unless they are entangled. If they are NOT entangled, i believe the best strategy is to work on getting them separated enough to chop - a side by side is simple, takes a few seconds to accomplish and the quick chop can be done well before it gets to the 'spinning mess' and the bottom line is, don't pull low enough to have the two out, you are playing with fire. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #37 November 15, 2011 QuoteSeen video of exactly that, but it also brings to mind a post I saw here a year or so ago of a guy that was doing an intentional 2 out (for the experience or whatever reason) - I forget exactly what happened - think maybe they downplaned and a riser went around his neck? - at any rate it almost killed him. If I had a stable biplane I wouldnt mess with it personally. A side by side that was squirrley I would consider trying to get them to downplane and get rid of the main... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3849977;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; Is this the one you mean?"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #38 November 16, 2011 Yep, thats the one. Obviously after rereading it and seeing he had on two harnesses, thats not a concern for a "normal" two out situation - just illustrates that things noone ever imagined can happen (I knew I remembered something about asphyxiation - thanks Joe!). As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,050 #39 November 16, 2011 >If you are unable to steer it sufficiently, then you end up on a roof, in the >power lines or in the trees as the video recently suggested, there were not >a lot of options. Agreed. If you can't control it, then get rid of (or pull in) one parachute. But if you _can_ control it - best to leave it alone. Don't mess with something that will save your life. >The "Best" scenario is landing the reserve parachute by itself. to do >that, you need to get rid of the main. a side by side can be chopped. Well, the best scenario is landing the main. A reserve is a good option. Landing two parachutes is much less optimal but has been done often with good success. On the other hand, chopping the main and having it entangle with the reserve (as has happened several times over the years) is pretty much guaranteed to kill you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #40 November 16, 2011 "Quote... If altitude permits, and, if you have CRW experience, turn the two out situation into a down plane and then chop the Main. ..." ......................................................................... When you consider that the majority of two-outs these days are caused by scared AADs - after opening mains too low - the problem starts below 750 feet. No way that gives you enough time to steer it into a down-plane, cutaway, turn your reserve into the wind, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #41 November 16, 2011 Quote " Quote ... If altitude permits, and, if you have CRW experience, turn the two out situation into a down plane and then chop the Main. ... " ......................................................................... When you consider that the majority of two-outs these days are caused by scared AADs - after opening mains too low - the problem starts below 750 feet. No way that gives you enough time to steer it into a down-plane, cutaway, turn your reserve into the wind, etc. I thought the priority was. Canopy above your head. Feet together Land into the wind. But I agree. I tried to find the video I mentioned earlier, but I guess it has been deleted Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyguyscott 10 #42 November 17, 2011 FWIW, Over the last 25 years in the sport, I have now had 3 two-out jumps; here is my own experience. The first time I was doing CRW with a buddy of mine, we had entered a two-man downplane on purpose -- we were young then and took it low, I'd say we broke at 500' or so. When we let go, his foot brushed enough on my reserve cable to fire it. I felt the reserve come off my back. My first instinct was to immediately cut-way, because, in my first jump course, that is what I had been instructed to do (however, in those days, FJS were given round reserves). I hesitated to cut away because I looked for my reserve but could not see it. Unbeknownst to me at the moment, because of the way sub-terminal speed, the reserve fell below me, and the free bag was slowly twisting underneath. When it finally got pulled off, my reserve started to inflate and I entered my own downplane just before I impacted in a muddy cornfield. From break-off to impact was maybe 7 seconds total time. Had I cutaway my main immediately, its likely my reserve may not have had time to inflate. As it was, I suffered a spiral fracture of one of my vertebrae and a nasty sprained ankle, but being young, I healed quickly and was back jumping four weeks later. That was with a Cruslite main and a Raven II reserve, for you old-timers. Years later, my second time, I had a hard, low pull (never tell a crazy buddy you will get his opening on video), and here is the interesting thing, my AAD fired (above it's set firing time, due to the fact that when my main opened about 1700' or so, as I swung under, my ADD immediately swung out of my burble and felt a dramatic increase in pressure. I did not feel it fire. I was flying under my main (a Stiletto) and trailing my reserve pilot chute. It was only when I did a 90 turn that it caught enough air to pull the freebag out of the tray. The next thing I knew, I felt a tug and looked up at a bi-plane. Now, at this point, none of these studies had been done yet and no one knew exactly what to do. I briefly tried to gestimate what might happen with what was then a radically new high performance main and a more traditional reserve, when, with my previous experience coming to mind, decided to fall back on my first jump training and I chopped the main. Luckily, (and I was) it cleared without incident and I landed my reserve. The lesson here is that people do tend to fall back on their last level of training rather than figure out something on the spot. The last 2-out adventure, a tandem student pulled the reserve handle on me during main deployment. I knew immediately this could be very, very bad. Luckily, as my reserve and main started off going into a nice side-by, I chopped it and all ended well. What we tell FJS stays with them for many years later. I have been more lucky than smart, and worn out my guardian angels by now. There may come a time when you are in a situation, follow the recommended procedures correctly, and still have a bad day. There are no guarantees in this sport, or in life for that matter. But these are the best recommendations we have, and by trial and experience found them the most effective in most situations. And no one yet knows the best thing to do in a complete entanglement, so we don't teach it in the FJC. Trust your training, get enough experience to trust your judgement and recognize stupidity, then avoid it. That and some luck just might be enough to keep you free in the skies and whole on the ground, rather than food for the flies and a hole in the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #43 November 17, 2011 Great story, thanks for sharing. Out of interest, which kind of ADD were you using during the second incident?"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyguyscott 10 #44 November 17, 2011 The AAD was an original Cypress. I want to stress that I think the AAD functioned as it was designed to. Just one of those examples of how sometimes "safety" devices can, in certain situations, contribute to a situation rather than prevent them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #45 November 17, 2011 I had a two out bi-plane, following a Cypress fire. My Hornet 170 was in front of the reserve. I released the front brakes on the front canopy, making gentle turns. They flew very well that way. There was a tall snag (tree) and a fence that I was trying to avoid. This meant a down wind landing. I did a good PLF, and landed fast but fairly soft. I even made the Lost Prairie video that year. Does this mean that I done good? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #46 November 17, 2011 Thank you for the additional information. I already assumed the AAD worked within it's parameter correctly, but as you previously was talking about an ADD I was thinking more in the direction of a Sentinel or FXC12000. End of topic drift.. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
