General Tips

[marco-ripcord 0]

Knowledge wanted, boys (and girls).

After my 15th jump (not a good one I might add), I most definitely need some help to achieve and maintain a good arch.

Background info: 15th jump (yesterday) @ 11K was a mess. Poorly executed exit (I'm doing this 3-points exit (left foot on the skid, right foot hanging, both hands grip)), legs spread a little too far (more of an X than a boxed position) and one knee more flexed than the other lead me to a spin. Also, I was a little more nervous than I should since the instructor kept signaling me to relax (which I obviously failed to do), which also lead me to "pendulum" a little bit (sorry, I don't know the skydiving lingo in english).

You can tell I'm a little frustrated because we (me and lead instructor) were supposed to do forward/backward movement training and none of it happened. However, I'm more concerned with the fact I wasn't able to achieve and maintain a good leg position. Video footage shows my arms/hands are well positioned.

In the briefing, he told me to relax a little more but I'm having trouble to figure out the balance between "relaxing" and "holding tight enough to counter the wind".


So, here are my questions:

1. Legs - what's a good training method to achieve a muscular memory to improve my box man (knees, distance)? Is there such a thing?

2. Once in the box and with a good arch, how can I hold it without over flexing muscles I'm not supposed to? I'm 5'8" / 150lbs and I've seen a 6' with no more than 140lbs doing it.. If his body mass is enough, mine sure is but he obviously is using his mass way more effectively than I'm using mine.

[julio_gyn 0]

for the arch you just point your toes until you feel on the leg, the distance between the legs is just a matter or relax....

(pra relaxar voce tem q respirar e curtir o salto, sem a auto-obrigacao de atingir metas, fiz o meu curso e os melhores saltos foram os que menos me preocupei...)

Julio Cesar
blue skies

[yoink 321]

It sounds like you're getting the right advice from your instructors - there's a surprise, hey?

Relax.


You probably just need to find the best way to do this that works for you - personally I find that just at exit I've usually been holding my breath and have been cramped in a door, so once I'm in freefall a big breath in, then a long slow one out along with a big smile helps a lot.

Some people find that practising their arch at home with their feet up on a couch behind them gives them a good feel for it, but really, you don't need it perfect at the moment - just pay attention to the signals your instructors are giving and try and enjoy it.

If there's somewhere nearby with a tunnel, a couplle of minutes in that would probably help, but really, don't worry too much about it - the worrying only makes you more frustrated which makes you more tense and less able to relax


It's supposed to be fun - not work. Enjoy it.

[100LL 0]

im about in the same position as you. I'm 5'10'' and 155lbs. I had a problem with rocking around in free fall because i was not relaxed enough on jump 3, afterward my instructor told me the same thing....relax.

I found that for me just taking a nice breath and smiling helped relax me in free-fall and the problem disappeared. Don't try to fight the airflow, try to let it cushion you, as if you were laying on a comfy couch.

As far as flexing your muscles to hold the arch, i found that by pointing my toes a bit it really helped to keep good form.

Hope this helps

[sundevil777 102]

Warning - any advice you get online should be assumed to be wrong. This online stuff is not a substitute for your instructors/coaches, especially when you have video to review with them.

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"pendulum"

I think the term used is "potato chipping" or "chipping", which is instability in the 'pitch' axis.

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legs spread a little too far (more of an X than a boxed position)

If I understand you correctly, this might actually not be a problem. A lot of newbies actually tend to have their legs too close together/not spread far enough apart for good roll axis stability. If you look at really good RW flyers, you will usually see their legs spread apart quite wide, it will often seem to be nearly 90 degrees. This will give good stability in the roll axis. You do not want to spread your legs during a track or dive, just when you are falling flat.

A lot of newbies also have very busy legs - they don't realize they're flailing with their legs/feet. This can also be described as over-corrections, like when a person first learns to drive, it is common to be very busy with the steering wheel going back and forth too quickly and unnecessarily, then after a while it is realized that very small, not so frequent corrections are all that is needed and it is done without thinking about it.

It used to be common advice (decades ago before AFF existed) that when a student was chipping or spinning, for them to go into a slight track for a short time and then go back to a flat and stable position.

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I'm having trouble to figure out the balance between "relaxing" and "holding tight enough to counter the wind".

Of course we do have to use muscles against the wind, but it shouldn't actually feel that you are - so the emphasis is definitely toward relaxing, or perhaps it should be thought more like not fighting it instead of simply relaxing. Have more confidence than is justified, that helps to relax.

Warning - any advice you get online should be assumed to be wrong. This online stuff is not a substitute for your instructors/coaches, especially when you have video to review with them.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[obelixtim 150]

As the others said ... relax.

The best way to do this is not to worry about a "hard" arch, as this just encourages rigidity. This will cause you to bounce around in the air. You shouldn´t be fighting with the wind, just go with it.

Your body is the heaviest part of you, and gravity will sort out the falling part. Its most important to let your arms and legs relax, and the best way to do that is to let the wind blow them back above your body.

If you can imagine your hair blowing backwards in the wind, just let your arms and legs blow back in the same way. You`ll automatically fall stable, straight down.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[rehmwa 2]

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If you look at really good RW flyers, you will usually see their legs spread apart quite wide, it will often seem to be nearly 90 degrees.

To the original poster - relax and enjoy your dive. Listen to your instructors and not strangers on a forum board. Good luck. Now ignore the rest of my post here and stop overthinking things.


Sundevil - there are a few pros with a wide stance but they are exceptions - relaxed and a bit narrow seems to be the key today. Wide actually really hurts stability - we teach knees touching drills in mantis training camps to untrain the BAD habit of too wide knees.

wide knees force "bone on bone impingement" during attempts to arch in the hip joint which really inhibits the ability to get a smooth arch (it causes cupping/dearch in the hips) except for the most limber of genetic mutants.

Potato chipping can come from too tense, and also a flat or cupped arch - wide knees forces the hips to dearch based on the anatomy of the joint. The wind is pounding on the flat torso rather than flowing around a curved body in a controlled fashion.

Try it -
push your hips down with very narrow knees - easy
push your hips down but start with really wide knees - nearly impossible (the hips just won't allow it due to that mechanical interference I mention)

For doing leg turns, it makes a very unsymmetrical body position.

For AFF, women seem to have a bigger trouble than men too for the issue of wide legs. Experienced jumpers that have problems holding position is almost always an issue of too wide a stance.


I try to train shoulder width apart for students - even narrower for advance camps. And I'm constantly working on the issue with my own form every season (such a hard habit to break). If I'm swirling out of position on 360's and bigger, it's always wide stance causing a dearch.

Go watch an advanced tunnel camp and watch the instructors with the oldtimers - 90% of the time is spent with the instructor trying to squeeze their knees together.

Stability has to come from clean airflow around the body, not hanging out joints as wide as possible. Old school vs new school.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

sorry, I kind of beat that one to death - it's important, especially when moving on to mantis

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[sundevil777 102]

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If you look at really good RW flyers, you will usually see their legs spread apart quite wide, it will often seem to be nearly 90 degrees.

To the original poster - relax and enjoy your dive. Listen to your instructors and not strangers on a forum board. Good luck. Now ignore the rest of my post here and stop overthinking things.


Sundevil - there are a few pros with a wide stance but they are exceptions - relaxed and a bit narrow seems to be the key today. Wide actually really hurts stability - we teach knees touching drills in mantis training camps to untrain the BAD habit of too wide knees.

wide knees force "bone on bone impingement" during attempts to arch in the hip joint which really inhibits the ability to get a smooth arch (it causes cupping/dearch in the hips) except for the most limber of genetic mutants.

Potato chipping can come from too tense, and also a flat or cupped arch - wide knees forces the hips to dearch based on the anatomy of the joint. The wind is pounding on the flat torso rather than flowing around a curved body in a controlled fashion.

Try it -
push your hips down with very narrow knees - easy
push your hips down but start with really wide knees - nearly impossible (the hips just won't allow it due to that mechanical interference I mention)

For doing leg turns, it makes a very unsymmetrical body position.

For AFF, women seem to have a bigger trouble than men too for the issue of wide legs. Experienced jumpers that have problems holding position is almost always an issue of too wide a stance.


I try to train shoulder width apart for students - even narrower for advance camps. And I'm constantly working on the issue with my own form every season (such a hard habit to break). If I'm swirling out of position on 360's and bigger, it's always wide stance causing a dearch.

Go watch an advanced tunnel camp and watch the instructors with the oldtimers - 90% of the time is spent with the instructor trying to squeeze their knees together.

Stability has to come from clean airflow around the body, not hanging out joints as wide as possible. Old school vs new school.

I'm definitely guilty of being out of touch with the mantis technique, and what you say makes sense. I'll have to try the mantis more this season with legs a bit closer.

However, it still seems like I see plenty of very wide spread position among the very best in the world. The attached pic shows airspeed a couple years ago. 2 of them were quite wide during the entire dive, 2 were about shoulder width or just slightly wider. I suppose they don't need to do much adjusting of their fallrate having long ago dialed that in with their teammates. Anyway, thanks for reminding me that techniques have evolved since dinosaurs roamed the earth.

To the OP, I suggest studying "Zen and the art of falling with style"...no, not really, but you could take a lesson from the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh and just..."be", or something like that.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[rehmwa 2]

Hard to argue with Airspeed pics. Those guys are the best. I suspect they could fly world class scores with a foot tied to a hand - they are so comfy in the sky.

Have fun with it and let me know if it makes any difference.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[popsjumper 2]

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Hard to argue with Airspeed pics. Those guys are the best. I suspect they could fly world class scores with a foot tied to a hand - they are so comfy in the sky.

Have fun with it and let me know if it makes any difference.

Beat me to it except I was going to use the "corncob up the butt" analogy.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rehmwa 2]

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Hard to argue with Airspeed pics. Those guys are the best. I suspect they could fly world class scores with a foot tied to a hand - they are so comfy in the sky.

Have fun with it and let me know if it makes any difference.

Beat me to it except I was going to use the "corncob up the butt" analogy.

thus explaining the wide stance?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[marco-ripcord 0]

Thanks for the help, guys!

In 2 weeks I'll be @ the DZ to do a few more jumps. I'll let you know the outcome.

[marco-ripcord 0]

Talk about a late come back, huh?

After being away for a while, 4 months ago I was able to get back into it (financial reasons, as it happens).. Had a good talk with my instructors to let them know why I was away and what my intentions were/are. After a 2 hour refresher and some ground training, we took to the skies for a 7K jump, 15s free fall in which I qual'ed up to get back to 12K and have been on since.

The "relax problem" was solved, too. Maybe the time away helped take the edge and pressure of.. or I just "got it", I don't know.. Somehow I discovered I feel A LOT more comfortable throwing myself out of the airplane (literally jumping out of it) then hanging on the skids and maybe that's been the key factor.

Over the past 6 jumps I have made more progress than the previous 10 combined. Next two coached jumps will be focused on side sliding and then I should be set for my A License qual jump.

Its in sight now...

[Scrumpot 1]

Congratulations, and WELCOME BACK!

coitus non circum - Moab Stone