Downsizing canopies: why is smaller better?

[RippedCord 0]

I weigh 225 lbs (with gear) and have 19 jumps. I've been jumping a 260 sq. ft. zp. When I ask about what I might consider buying, the phrase "when you downsize" keeps entering the conversation.

Can someone please tell me why I would WANT or NEED to downsize and would anything be wrong with staying at a wingloading lower than 1.0?

I'm having a hard time understanding this. I only want to land safely on a dime after falling out the sky.

edited to clarify that I weight 225 with all my gear on.

AMDG

[quade 4]

"Better" is subjective. You have to make certain all parties understand what they mean when they use a term such as "better". Some people say things such as "you'll get better landings if you have a smaller canopy" when in fact what they really mean is "faster" or "longer swoop".

However, to a person interested in accuracy, smaller is usually not "better". For instance, most BASE jumpers have fairly large canopies to deal with the problems of accurately landing in small areas and PRO Demo jumpers usually have fairly large canopies for the same reason.

There is no requirement to downsize to anything that you are not comfortable with.

That said, a canopy of 260 square feet and loaded under 1:1 will have some disadvantages in normal, fun jumping; it'll take a larger sized container, it'll be slightly more of a pain in the ass to pack, you may find it difficult to make much forward progress in moderate winds.

At 19 jumps I wouldn't worry too much about making life-long commitments to a canopy. Talk to your instructors and see what they have to recommend. Tell them your goals of slow speed and accuracy and they should be able to point you in the right direction.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[wmw999 2,452]

I'll add to what Quade just said that if your instructors really really don't understand not wanting to downsize aggressively, go find the oldest instructor out there (i.e. who's been jumping the longest). Back in the earlier square days, that was not an uncommon wingloading, although you have to understand that the canopies were less efficient, and they were F111 and not zero porosity.

I still own, and jump occasionally, a rig that puts me at .7

Wendy W.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rhino 0]

I am going to be on the other side of the spectrum..

This is after I made my first 50 or so jumps on various types of Rental canopies from a 220 to a 135.

So I got 50 jumps on anything I could jump.

After that I started to feel "as I downsized" that I had much much more control over a smaller canopy than a larger one.

I had occasions like Quade mentioned where I had made bad judgement calls and jumped in slightly higher winds than I should have. These were under a 1:0 wingloading. I found myself flying backwards in high winds.

Going OH SHIT there are power lines back there. I had to learn to get the canopy out of the air as quickly as possible using front risers. And S-turns. Mostly front risers. It was me against all the bastards watching me fly backwards saying I wasn't going to stand it up. I always did.

My decision to jump in those winds under a bigger canopy was simply flawed. But I was determined and I learned, luckily without getting hurt.

My first canopy was a Triathlon150 loaded at 1.2.. It was very docile, had few bad habits because it was in no way elliptical, simply a square parachute that packed really easily. I got really good at accuracy, and slow speed flight.

Then I started speeding things up.. Using those front risers to go a little faster. Noticing how much more control I had and how the canopy felt like it was on rails.. I got bit by the swoop bug.

I would never recommend my progression to anyone as I have been extremely agressive.. I demoed a Diablo120 and an fx114. Loved the twitchyness of the Diablo and ordered a Diablo110..

The speed of that canopy initially scared the hell out of me. I learned after 10 jumps or so to look much further ahead than I was use to. I was around 1.75 on the Diablo110. Put maybe 60 or so jumps on that canopy and went to a crossfire103.

Soon after got a new Crossfire2-97 at 1.85.

Personally I fly by feel. Again I am not recommending anyone do what I did I am just trying to give you the answers you are asking for. I have allways been a kenesthetic learner. I learned to ride a horse by feel, never having had a lesson. But I can ride the hell out of a horse.

It took me 100 jumps to even tap the crossfire2.. I now have roughly 200 jumps on it. 130+ have been hop-n-pops from altitude. Compared to flying the Falcon220 which felt like it was flying me, the Crossfire2, even the diablo felt like it was connected to me.

I can practically think now and it does what I want it to.. I could do that to the Triathlon and it would fly straight and laugh at me..

NOTHING is wrong with being conservative.

I would not however start my own children at a wing loading of less than 1.0. I don't feel it is entirely safe.

I think a triathlon at 1.0 is a great starting canopy for just about anyone..

As I downsized I felt more in control of every aspect of the canopies flight..

This is me... Hope this helps..

Rhino

[Samurai136 0]

Quote

Can someone please tell me why I would WANT or NEED to downsize and would anything be wrong with staying at a wingloading lower than 1.0?

If you choose to jump in stronger wind conditions you may want a higher wing loading to get better penetration against the wind.
I realized this on student status years ago when I was holding and backing up the whole time under canopy.


Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Clownburner 0]

On the other hand, if the wind is that strong, you might seriously consider staying on the ground anyway...

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[wmw999 2,452]

Something to consider about light wingloadings and going backwards (if that's the only problem, it's not a huge one).

It used to be common to land backing up under a round. We did it for fun, so it really couldn't have damaged too many people. You have to learn how to figure out up high that you're not going forward, and simply set up up wind of the landing area, out of the normal flight pattern (not everyone will be backing up). Don't expect to stand up, but that's not a problem either.

And, with squares, if you're regularly jumping in winds that make you go backwards, then maybe, just maybe, you should tone down your winds.

I used to jump in winds up to 15 knots under a round without even thinking about it. And land on the DZ safely.

I don't think it's safer to have an underloaded main, but for someone with low to semi-low experience, it's probably a lot better than having an overloaded one.

And if you live in Houston and are scared of falling down, I'll give you PLF lessons. Just PM me or wander by.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

I weigh 225 lbs (with gear) and have 19 jumps. I've been jumping a 260 sq. ft. zp. When I ask about what I might consider buying, the phrase "when you downsize" keeps entering the conversation.

Can someone please tell me why I would WANT or NEED to downsize and would anything be wrong with staying at a wingloading lower than 1.0?

I'm having a hard time understanding this. I only want to land safely on a dime after falling out the sky.

edited to clarify that I weight 225 with all my gear on.

Did you learn to drive on a Porsche or Ferrari? Do you think a Porsche or Ferrari is more fun for an experienced driver than a Ford Escort?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 4]

Quote

Do you think a Porsche or Ferrari is more fun for an experienced driver than a Ford Escort?

Again, beware of subjective language.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Tilion 0]

Quote

Did you learn to drive on a Porsche or Ferrari? Do you think a Porsche or Ferrari is more fun for an experienced driver than a Ford Escort?

Well I didn't, but I was almost involved in an accident not too long ago, where I really needed to step on the gass because of a speedmaniac that was running a red light. If I had breaked, I would have stopped in the middle of the crossing. The van next to me wasn't so lucky that he had some horse power left over. He and the speedmaniac were the accident .
Moral of the story, see above post .

[wmw999 2,452]

Quote

Do you think a Porsche or Ferrari is more fun for an experienced driver than a Ford Escort?

Depends on what you're looking for, and what you think is fun. I've been driving a year or two, and still drive a 4-cylinder Mitsubishi Galant. Works for me.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Rdutch 0]

When you have 500 Jumps on your "Whatever" 230 then ask the same question, please take your time to learn to fly what you are flying, then work on the downsizing. Everyone learns at their own pace, but its much better to spend a year learning to fly than spending a year wishing you had. Either way be safe.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[wmw999 2,452]

Quote

its much better to spend a year learning to fly than spending a year wishing you had

Awesome quote. I don't think I've quite heard it that way before.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Quote

Do you think a Porsche or Ferrari is more fun for an experienced driver than a Ford Escort?

Depends on what you're looking for, and what you think is fun. I've been driving a year or two, and still drive a 4-cylinder Mitsubishi Galant. Works for me.

Wendy W.

In that case the question doesn't apply to you. The reason people downsize is that smaller canopies are more fun for them, and people buy sports cars because they are more fun for them . Some people like driving trucks, too.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Quote

Do you think a Porsche or Ferrari is more fun for an experienced driver than a Ford Escort?

Again, beware of subjective language.

The decision to buy a car or downsize a canopy IS subjective. I doubt anyone buys a Porsche thinking it will be less fun than a Ford Escort.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Samurai136 0]

What exactly is subjective?

It is an apt analogy.
Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Tonto 1]

"its much better to spend a year learning to fly than spending a year wishing you had. Either way be safe." - Quote - RippedCord.

Excellent Quote. Mind if I use it at my DZ?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Ron 10]

Quote

My first canopy was a Triathlon150 loaded at 1.2.. It was very docile, had few bad habits because it
was in no way elliptical, simply a square parachute that packed really easily.

What bad habits because it was not elliptical?

Are you saying YOU had bad habits or the canopy did?

If its you, then they are not bad habits....Looking at your PC while you deploy is not a bad habit UNLESS you are under an elliptical. So for 90% of the jumpers its not a bad idea.

If it is the canopy...You need to explain these to me.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[BPO 0]

Quote

It was very docile, had few bad habits because it was in no way elliptical

Quote

What bad habits because it was not elliptical?

I think the emphasis should be on 'few'

[rhino 0]

Quote

What bad habits because it was not elliptical?

Are you saying YOU had bad habits or the canopy did?

If its you, then they are not bad habits....Looking at your PC while you deploy is not a bad habit UNLESS you are under an elliptical. So for 90% of the jumpers its not a bad idea.

If it is the canopy...You need to explain these to me.

Ron

Let me try and think of a bad habit the canopy had??

Can't really think of one.. In fact that is what my post meant..

Rhino

[Ron 10]

Good point..I deleted my question

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rhino 0]

Quote

I think the emphasis should be on 'few'

Bingo...

[quade 4]

Quote

What exactly is subjective?

It is an apt analogy.

Not if the stated goals are low speed and accuracy.

And they were.

Let's say a student driver went into a car dealership and asked to see an economical car to get him to and from home, school and work. Yes, I'm almost certain the dealer would try to push him into a flashier and faster car than required, but would that actually be the correct choice based on the stated goals?

I don't think so.

Let's think about why this thread was started in the first place, be responsible folks and give appropriate advice to folks.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[usskydiver 0]

ODB,
It all comes down to what YOU want to do. There are many who will make the conditional statement "when you downsize" but it doesn't need to apply to you unless you want it to.

I'm about 200 out the door and love my Velocity 103. My wife is <150 out the door and loves her Sabre 2 135.

Again, it's about your needs and desires. Do what makes you happy (as long as it's safe).

Tim
Maggot

[towerrat 0]

Quote

As I downsized I felt more in control of every aspect of the canopies flight..

***really? I've seen the nasty dirt and grass stains all over the back of your rig.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

• Quote