sunnydee123 0 #1 September 22, 2003 Had some great pals spend all day Saturday with me making jumps, playing with different exits trying to help me get headdown. I am VERY happy to say that I actually felt it on 2 of the 7 (have about 20 attempts under my belt now). I am always working, trying to relax and feel the wind on my body but these few times, I was released and was able to actually feel it the air and hold my position (for a few seconds ). I'm not grasping head down as easily as I did sit but it is still early in my attempts and I've got LOTS of time to practice. Nothing like a good challenge! Any suggestions or tips?....or just keeping jumping and practicing? What is a good solo headdown exit - is there one? Oh yeah....and I realized that jogging pants DO NOT hold up in 160 mph headdown positions. Made 3 jumps and had a leg blow out. Had to resort back to my jean capri pants which are nice and sturdy but no drag on legs. Can't wait to get my freefly suit! Thanks gang, for whatever you are willing to share. Dreams become reality, one choice at a time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #2 September 22, 2003 Get something baggy on bottom, tight on top (ooh lala!!) The best advice I could give you is don't think about what you're doing. Just RELAX, spread your legs, breathe, and fly it. It'll make SO much sense if you just leave the plane and feel the wind. If you feel wind on the sides of your legs, you're falling straight (well, theoretically), feel wind on your heels, youre going forward, wind on your shins or toes, you're going backward, wind on your shins, you're moving like a bat out of hell. If you want to think technical stuff, here's a list of stuff to remember, but try not to keep your mind on the techs, the more you think about it, the worse you'll fly. 1. RELAX RELAX RELAX the upper body. You want all the wind to go right by it so you can use your arms for docks and stuff without losing your position. Plus, every freeflyer knows, the key to all flying is fluidity with the air, and breathing exercises and relaxing all you can will accomplish this. (And even though in belly flying you're used to the old "relax will make you go wicked fast" thing, your legs will anchor you in, and you don't have to worry about this. Relax as much as you can.) 2. Hips forward, this will help align your upper body with your lower so you'll be flying nice and straight. In time this will become autopilot. 3. Legs spread straight out to your sides in a strong yet comfortable position. You want to be able to feel the air on your legs, and control it, but you shouldn't have to force anything. You can have just as much power with your legs relaxed as you can with them flexed, so save your strength and your muscles, and let your legs fly. 4. Eyes to the horizon, or if you're with someone, their eyes. This will be the correct orientation. Remember, if your head is towards the ground, two things are happening. First, you're moving really fast horizontally (prolly backwards), and second, you're no longer head down, you're in a VERY steep track. Hmmmm..........well, that's all I can think of right now. If you have any questions, PM me, or better yet, ask Levin or Hookkit, they'll hook you up with some great advice. Hope I could help!!! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TattooedMoFo 0 #3 September 22, 2003 Easiest solo exit to get into a headdown postion, is dependant on what plane you are getting out of. For side door exits, hold on to rail (if it's inside), crouch in the door with your back to the wind. Step off into a almost flat body position, tilt your head back slightly as you are falling (watch the plane) and let your body fall into a head down position with the help of the relative wind pushing you downwards. May sound a little complicated but it's not and you aren't trying to fly into a HD position because your body will fall into this naturally. Might take a little getting used to but like i said is a very easy exit to use on your own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunnydee123 0 #4 September 22, 2003 I've started trying this one actually...think I am trying TOO hard (stretching the neck back) and body not quit getting over so actually flying my back and THINKING I am headdown cause my neck is so far back. Kinda funny actually but part of the learning curve I imagine. Got a great video with the Sugar Gliderz doing there thing. Those girls are amazing...I replay there exits over and over just to see how relaxed they are. Thanks for the tips - keep 'em coming! Dreams become reality, one choice at a time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sssbc99 0 #5 September 22, 2003 QuoteEasiest solo exit to get into a headdown postion, is dependant on what plane you are getting out of. For side door exits, hold on to rail (if it's inside), crouch in the door with your back to the wind. Step off into a almost flat body position, tilt your head back slightly as you are falling (watch the plane) and let your body fall into a head down position with the help of the relative wind pushing you downwards. May sound a little complicated but it's not and you aren't trying to fly into a HD position because your body will fall into this naturally. Might take a little getting used to but like i said is a very easy exit to use on your own. This is a great exit but an important addition, especially when you are not falling straight, is to turn 90 degrees once you are on your head(or feel like you are) so that you are not going into someone elses airspace. I saw something really bad almost happen last weekend. Edit: And coaching never hurts either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Levin 0 #6 September 22, 2003 Quotebut an important addition, especially when you are not falling straight, is to turn 90 degrees once you are on your head(or feel like you are) so that you are not going into someone elses airspace. that's why I always suggest less experienced exit before more experienced freeflyers (regardless of group size following them). Lighter less experienced jumpers before the heavier ones. And if there is a possibility of them shooting across the sky I recommend the next group wait a couple of extra seconds. Levin vSCR#17 www.freeflyers.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunnydee123 0 #7 September 22, 2003 There is so much to consider when first learning new techniques...I try to ALWAYS think of everyone else who is in the air in or around me at all times. When first learning to SIT I had a TOO CLOSE FOR COMFORT call with someone learning headdown. Thank goodness my coach had me in a nice tight train, is all I have to say. Thanks thought...always nice to put those kinda thoughts back in the forefront of the brain......I want to learn and enjoy...not learn and fuck up! Dreams become reality, one choice at a time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaMan 0 #8 September 22, 2003 Another suggestion - only stay in an attempt (when doing a solo) for about 5 seconds. Then transition back to a sit; get stable and cartwheel back to head down. Do this even if you feel stable. This will help you with a couple of things: 1) the most important reason is it will reduce the amount of airspace you cover (safety must be a part of any dive) and it also allows you to feel if you were sliding or tracking. 2) it will give you practice with transitions - the biggest waste of time during any of my coach jumps was spent trying to get stable after a transition. In the long run, you'll be a better freeflier. Another good exit to help with relaxing and feeling the transition off the hill is the "Zen dive": Face the front of the aircraft in a floating position and lightly leave the door as if you were doing an RW jump with these changes: keep your hands on your elbows (you have your arms crossed against your stomach), legs straight and spread about shoulder width, no arching and relax. It sounds funny, but it worked for me - it might work well for you...Z-Flock 8 Discotec Rodriguez Too bad weapons grade stupidity doesn't lead to sterility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunnydee123 0 #9 September 22, 2003 That sounds interesting and I might just try it....never can hurt. As for your first comment....I never try and HOLD whatever I think might be headdown when I am solo. I go back and forth so I guess that is something I am doing right. I'll let you know how my first attempt at your suggestion goes....(picture me sitting at my desk, eyes closed, in the "position" and boss walks in) Dreams become reality, one choice at a time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #10 September 22, 2003 Boss shmoss - good luck wit it SunnyDeeee!! -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaMan 0 #11 September 23, 2003 Depending upon how hard you are concentrating, he might think you're really mad at him!Z-Flock 8 Discotec Rodriguez Too bad weapons grade stupidity doesn't lead to sterility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unutsch 0 #12 September 23, 2003 yo sista, i'm with ya!!! me too is trying to go headdown for the last 30 or 40 jumps, but in vain!!!! well, i kinda made it in 8 or 9 jumps, but i'm not quite sure if i was going straight down... the best tip that i got, was from someone who was over the sea, at DeLand, and made some 25 coached freefly jumps, was to spread out my legs, and be totally straight... but the thing i do wrong is, i arch my back... damn, like i was a bellyflyer or something like that anyway, we'll both make it, for sure!!!! i can feel it!!!! Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation: http://www.padliangeli.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunnydee123 0 #13 September 23, 2003 I'll keep you posted and you keep me posted....if we combine all our "tips" we are sure to feel it before too long. I just got my new "used" rig Sunday also...now I am REALLY ready and know I am safe(er) with my JAV Good luck - don't give up! Dreams become reality, one choice at a time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #14 September 23, 2003 Very long post!!! I think that trying to exit head down is not the most constructive approach to learning to fly head down... So the following assumes a sit or upright exit... ok? Here's why I think that it's hard to learn how to fly head down... I think that most people attempt to fly head down from a sit position, ok? So they're flying the comfortable sit position and throw a transition to what they think is head down, and end up on their back a little, or on their belly a little, or on there side a little... either way, I'm sure y'all have an idea of what I'm talking about... So why does this happen? What isn't working right here? I think that the barrier is all about speed here... Remember when you learned to fly in a sit? How weird it felt when you transitioned from belly to sit... Mushy, right? Finding the right "direction" was difficult. I think it has more to do with speed than anything else and learning to fly head down is not that different! See, when people are learning to fly head down, they tend to go pretty fast (compared to sit flying)... maybe their legs aren't really as wide as they think, or they over working their arms and under working their legs... maybe it's just a faster position in freefall... either way, they're traveling vertical or close to vertical at a fast speed... Soooooo, the first 3 or 4 seconds after you transition from a sit to head down, you body has not only switched orientation 180 degrees, it's also greatly decreased it's surface area... It's not going to be easy to control that, let alone learn a new position... You need to fix this problem where the problem starts... before you transition from the sit! Try to speed things up a little... Think of the process as 5 steps, that mesh together into one nice fluid motion... 1.From a sit... bring your legs together and straighten your body out...1 or 2 seconds (increase your speed a little) 2.Now compress your body really small like a ball... 3.Next, hold your body in this small position, and transition. You do not have to rush the transition!!! Wait for your body turn 180 degrees... be patient. ( If you rush it, you will not be vertical when you come out of the transition. If you over rotate, stay curled up in a ball and wait until you're all the way back to a sit and start over (no corking here people :->) 4.Once you've made your 180 degree transition, you will decompress your body and go completely straight. 5.Last you will spread your legs as wide as they possible go. Try to hold it for 5 seconds (literally count to 5) and then reverse the directions to transition back to a sit. This will stop you from traveersing the sky aimlessly and you'll probably get more out of it by trying the same thing over and over again. You'll also dial in rock solid transitions while you try to learn to fly head down. This is what the method looks like on the keyboard... | /\ (sit) | | (body long feet first) O (body small like a ball... transition 180 degrees slowly) | | (body long head first) \/ | (Legs wide hold for 5 seconds) | | (body long head first) O (body small like a ball transition 180 degrees slowly) | | (body long feet first) | /\ (sit) You can and should easily practice the whole thing on the ground... Definitely the legs wide part... it super helps (make sure you only keep one leg on the ground, or else it doesn't feel the same, know what I mean? That was my 46 cents -drew edited because we can Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sssbc99 0 #15 September 23, 2003 Okay. This might sound very odd and maybe a little obsessed. One thing that has really helped me is to use the hip abductor(the one where you sit down and push your legs outwards...HEY! no gutter thoughts) machine at the gym. I go to the gym anyway so I just added this into my routine. What I do is take deep breaths and relax my whole upper body while I am using the machine; that way I am flexing the muscles used to spread the legs in a basic head down position while keeping the muscles in my upper body(which tend to tense up when learning hd) totally relaxed. It is funny because at first you will catch yourself flexing your upper body to try to get more strength out of your legs, which doesnt really work. One of the most important things that I have learned from experienced flyers and coaches alike is that a major problem when learning this position is that you tense up in your shoulders and arms and it makes flying HD a whole lot tougher and less stable, especially when learning to dock. I think it is a good visualization exercise for learning muscle control/muscle memory even if it does sound a little weird. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunnydee123 0 #16 September 23, 2003 WOW...lots of info (and pictures to boot - thanks Drew) and actually the gym machine makes TOTAL sense now that I think about it - cause I used to do it all the time - then was bulking up a bit and chilled. But I know EXACTLY what you are saying about tensing your body when doing it. ALL OF THIS IS GREAT and I thank everyone for your input. I understand each person learns differently but until I understand what it will take to make ME feel headdown - EVERYTHING is appreciated. Can't wait to go to ASC this weekend...new DZ, new rig, new headdown attempts....good fun for sure! If ya think of anything else - I'll be back...... xo, D Dreams become reality, one choice at a time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #17 September 23, 2003 Thanks Drew! That speeding up stuff makes a lot of sense to me- can't wait to try it this weekend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BETO74 0 #18 September 23, 2003 I hope you're talking about our attempts!!! I'm going this weekend Saturday first thing in the morning we can try again, see you later. Carloshttp://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunnydee123 0 #19 September 23, 2003 Yup...wish we could have done more...the exit felt very solid. I'll be at Atlanta Skydivin Center this weekend but perhaps we can catch up again soon. Thank again for the jump.........it won't be the last Dreams become reality, one choice at a time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OzoneJunkie 0 #20 September 23, 2003 Ok, my 2 cents: Q: What's the hardest thing about flying headdown? A: Holding the headdown position. ok. guess what. WRONG!! Headdown isn't about holding the magic position. There's no such thing. You angle your body to accomplish your needs at the time, be it forward, backward or side sliding movement, steep tracking, etc. I think this is part of the problem that makes headdown seem harder to learn than it actually is. Too many people trying to hit a position they think is correct, and wondering why they don't stay headdown. So, here's my suggestions/exercises (it's called the "pendulum" exercise): Leave the plane. Belly to earth. Slowly de-arch. Bring your arms in (all the way - you won't be using your arms yet). Straighten your legs. You'll slowly go head low. Allow the relative wind to take you onto your back. Now arch. You'll slowly return to a headdown-ish position, and continue onto your belly. Repeat. Important things to note/do: 1. Keep your head level, eyes straight ahead. This will allow you to observe where the horizon is relative to your body angle/attitude. Be very specific about this. 2. Keep your arms in the whole time. 3. Do this exercise perpendicular to jump run. At 6k, stop, go belly to earth, check your position relative to jump run, check below you, etc. Track or deploy if necessary (you flew up/down flightline, or someone is below you, blah blah...). 4. Repeat this jump 3 or 4 times. Then repeat it again, this time with your arms out. 5. Lastly, and importantly - let the relative wind do the work. Even if you go severly onto your back or your belly, apply the proper arch/de-arch, and let the wind take you back over. Even if it takes some time. In fact, that's the point of the exercise. Don't try to stop the pendulum movement short by trying to stay headdown. Instead, do go all the way past headdown each pass thru the pendulum. Later, when you're better, you'll just use body torque to bring yourself quickly into position. But this exercise is about 3 things: A. Learning/feeling the relative wind and how it works in relation to headdown flying. B. Not concerning yourself with the mythical magic headdown position. C. (Similar to A) Learning how to move your body relative to the horizon to adjust to the desired angle of flight. So, all I can say at this point is, try it for a day. You should do say 8 or so total jumps doing this exercise. 4 with arms in 4 with arms out. Does it work? Yes. It's helped a lot of people, and I used it when I first learned to fly headdown. Oh, and keep doing visualization/meditation. Lucid dreaming helps, too, but enough of the hippy talk - go out and try it :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TattooedMoFo 0 #21 September 23, 2003 One thing you gfuys are doing wrong here in some of your thoughts and suggestions is "thinking to much". Just relax and let it happen naturally don't think about it ( thanks Max),the more you try force the position, think about what your amrs should be doing at a specfic time while your legs are doing something else, will just make it that little more difficult. Relax while doing this, it will come. SunnyDee another exit you could try if the plane has a rail on the out side is get out of the plane face the prop and and just fall off to the side. As you fall get into what you think your body postion should be, legs out straight to the side arms nice and relaxed. Is a very simple method as well. Remember you are looking for simplicity in starting off, not some thing difficult that makes you try remember a 100 and one things while learning, have fun, smile, breath and just relax. Thaks SSbc99 for your 90degree turn, mention that you made, very important and I should have included that, cheers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #22 September 24, 2003 I really dislike it when a person is told not to use their arms. Freeflydrew has good Ideas. Put the arms out too though. You should see your hands in your peripheral. I agree with TattooedMoFo (and Wrongway) about not thinking so much. Just try it, then Disect it later. Head down is not rocket science, but it's challenge to get good at. Stop thinking so hard. Wrong way has a very nice write up. I like it alot. In addition, go stand against a wall so you know what straight up and down is. This will help determine how far he's suggesting to push the hips out. As always.. if you begin to fall out of a position, don't fight it. Use that energy to finish a rotation and you'll be back on your head, or the feet in a snap. The key is to just go try it, and do your damndest not to face line of flight. I like to stand around with my legs straight and wide, toes pointed partially outward. The knees should be bendable but not bent. Push out like you're trying to slide off the soles of your shoes. It's good for muscle memorry and strength. Concsiously breathe It's an old school trick that still works. Dirt dive breathing. It sounds funny but it works That's all for now. (Oh yes, I like this one... go take a slice of lemon in freefall with you and taste it sometime during the dive)My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymama 37 #23 September 24, 2003 Quote(Oh yes, I like this one... go take a slice of lemon in freefall with you and taste it sometime during the dive) Um....why?She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man, because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunnydee123 0 #24 September 24, 2003 I'm guessing cause if you are relaxed enough to have REMEMBERED the lemon and then also remember to TASTE IT, your body should be nice and relaxed.........good assumption? Dreams become reality, one choice at a time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #25 September 24, 2003 Hmmmm..........sunnydee talking about tasting...................oooooooohhhhhh.........I'll be back, gotta go change my suit......... ANYWAY, that sounds like it'd make sense. Either that, or hookkit just really likes lemons....... Ya know, what they say, when life gives you lemons, take them out in freefall!!! Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
